kev barlow Posted 8 March , 2006 Share Posted 8 March , 2006 I'm trying to determine the circumstances surrounding the death of my great-uncle Tom who died of wounds in Valenciennes on Nov 3rd 1918. I understand he served in the 4th Division of the Machine Gun Corps and I'm aware that the 'war diary' is the record I should be seeking but, being new to this, which war diary is it I need? Is it the 4th Division's or is it the Battalion's diary that might hold information surrounding his wounds and subsequent death? I'm aware that the National Archive may not even hold any information (Burnt Records) - is it 'appropriate' to simply ring and ask them? Please excuse my ignorance - I'm on a learning curve y'know! Regards kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max (UK) Posted 8 March , 2006 Share Posted 8 March , 2006 Have you looked him up in the SDGW database? I can if you tell me which one - there are three Tom Barlow's killed in the Great War - which one is he? Born in either Rendleton, Nantwich or Girton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patesian Posted 8 March , 2006 Share Posted 8 March , 2006 The only MGC casualty who partly fits your description was 136800 Pte George Alfred Barlow, DOW 3/11/1918, serving with 4 Bn. Previously M/335130 ASC, aged 19, son of Mr & Mrs G Barlow of 18 Tamworth St, Lichfield. Buried Cambrai East Mil Cem. His number indicates that he transferred-in about Feb/March 1918. The War Diary for 4 Bn is to be found under NA reference WO95/1472 which covers the period March 1918 to Feb 1919. It is very unlikely that his death will be specifically mentioned, but you may get an indication of how this occured, since he was the only casualty to the battalion on that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev barlow Posted 10 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2006 The only MGC casualty who partly fits your description was 136800 Pte George Alfred Barlow, DOW 3/11/1918, serving with 4 Bn. Previously M/335130 ASC, aged 19, son of Mr & Mrs G Barlow of 18 Tamworth St, Lichfield. Buried Cambrai East Mil Cem. His number indicates that he transferred-in about Feb/March 1918. The War Diary for 4 Bn is to be found under NA reference WO95/1472 which covers the period March 1918 to Feb 1919. It is very unlikely that his death will be specifically mentioned, but you may get an indication of how this occured, since he was the only casualty to the battalion on that day. Patesian Thanks very much for the information you've provided, 'Tom' was indeed George Alfred Barlow's nickname so your help has been very exciting and much appreciated. Regards and thanks once again PS. I've checked on the National Archives site against the War Diary reference you kindly quoted but its coming back as a blank page. Could I trouble you in asking both how you came by that info and how you know my uncle was the only casualty to the battalion on that day? I deeply appreciate your time and patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev barlow Posted 10 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2006 Have you looked him up in the SDGW database? I can if you tell me which one - there are three Tom Barlow's killed in the Great War - which one is he? Born in either Rendleton, Nantwich or Girton? Max Thanks for the info - in fact 'Tom' was a pet name for my uncle George Alfred Barlow: but what is the SDGW database to which you refer (I'm a novice!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 Max Thanks for the info - in fact 'Tom' was a pet name for my uncle George Alfred Barlow: but what is the SDGW database to which you refer (I'm a novice!). "SDGW" is "Soldiers Died in the Great War" the index of war deaths published by the Commonwealth (previously Imperial) War Graves Commission. Now it is rather shorthand for the searchable CD-ROM version produced by the Naval and Military Press in association with the CWGC; 'can anyone do me a SDGW lookup' is usually asking those of us who have it to search it. The CWGC's online database - the "Debt of Honour Register" is searchable online, but its searches cannot be tailored as much as the CD-ROM's can. Here is Uncle George's entry from the Debt of Honour: BARLOW Initials: G A Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) Unit Text: 4th Bn. Age: 19 Date of Death: 03/11/1918 Service No: 136800 Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. G. Barlow, of 18, Tamworth St., Lichfield, Staffs. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 47. Cemetery: CAMBRAI EAST MILITARY CEMETERY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev barlow Posted 10 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2006 "SDGW" is "Soldiers Died in the Great War" the index of war deaths published by the Commonwealth (previously Imperial) War Graves Commission. Now it is rather shorthand for the searchable CD-ROM version produced by the Naval and Military Press in association with the CWGC; 'can anyone do me a SDGW lookup' is usually asking those of us who have it to search it. The CWGC's online database - the "Debt of Honour Register" is searchable online, but its searches cannot be tailored as much as the CD-ROM's can. Here is Uncle George's entry from the Debt of Honour: BARLOW Initials: G A Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) Unit Text: 4th Bn. Age: 19 Date of Death: 03/11/1918 Service No: 136800 Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. G. Barlow, of 18, Tamworth St., Lichfield, Staffs. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 47. Cemetery: CAMBRAI EAST MILITARY CEMETERY Staffs Yeoman Thank you very much for the information and for explaining the abbreviation - I'm getting there slowly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patesian Posted 11 March , 2006 Share Posted 11 March , 2006 Sorry I've been unable to come back to your message of the 8th March before - have been away. The fact that the war diary comes up as a blank page at NA means that they haven't got round to putting that particular one "on-line" yet. The reference given is correct, but if you can't get there to look at it yourself, it means paying someone to pull the diary and have it physically copied for you (shouldn't be very expensive because you really only need one page!) I can tell you that Tom Barlow was the sole casualty to his Bn that day because I have all of the MGC casualties in searchable database format. I just asked it to give me all the casualties to 4 Bn on that day, and his was the only name to come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev barlow Posted 15 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 15 March , 2006 Sorry I've been unable to come back to your message of the 8th March before - have been away. The fact that the war diary comes up as a blank page at NA means that they haven't got round to putting that particular one "on-line" yet. The reference given is correct, but if you can't get there to look at it yourself, it means paying someone to pull the diary and have it physically copied for you (shouldn't be very expensive because you really only need one page!) I can tell you that Tom Barlow was the sole casualty to his Bn that day because I have all of the MGC casualties in searchable database format. I just asked it to give me all the casualties to 4 Bn on that day, and his was the only name to come up. Patesian Thanks very much indeed for that, your continued help and advice has been wonderful, terrific stuff. Going to see if I can sort out some time to actually visit the N.A. myself (i.e. clear with the wife!) to check out the war diary and try the service records. Cheers matey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 I can tell you that Tom Barlow was the sole casualty to his Bn that day because I have all of the MGC casualties in searchable database format. I Coincidence, I was just going to post generally about the MGC. I am looking for information about GORDON W Private Machine Gun Corps 36th Battn died 31/05/1918 aged 20 Service No: 17751 Cemerery GWALIA CEMETERY BELGIUM I am shortly to take over his niece, and as so often she will be the first of the family to see his grave. Any information would be appreciated, but the family was told he was in an Ulster Division/Battalion. Would the MGC have been attached/posted to a specific division and would you know which one?? Mant thanks Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patesian Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 Right. Here's what I can tell you about Pte W Gordon. (You will obviously have his CWGC details, so I won't repeat those). He was originally No 16521 13th Royal Irish Rifles and went overseas 03/10/1915 The 13th Bn was raised in Co Antrim in Sept 1914 from Antrim Volunteers. In Nov 1914 it was stationed at Newtownards in 108 Brigade of 36 Division. July 1915 at Seaford, England and landed in France at Boulogne 03/10/1915. He transferred-in to the MGC on or about 19th January 1916. He went to the 108 Brigade Machine Gun Company (108 Coy MGC) and stayed with that Company all the way through until 1/3/1918 when, with 107, 109 and 266 MG Coys, his company formed 36 Battalion MGC (of 36 Division) No 108 Coy would have become "B" Coy of 36 Bn. The War Diary for 108 Coy is in WO95/2506 In the early part of 1918, 36 Division was involved in the battles of St Quentin (XVIII Corps/5 Army), Actions at the Somme Crossings, Battle of Rosieres and Battle of Messines (108 Bde/19 Div/IX Corps/2 Army) and in April 1918, the Battle of Bailleul and Kemmel Ridge (II Corps/2 Army). They were not involved in any major actions after 18th April, until October 1918 and the circumstances of Gordon's death may well, therefore, be gleaned by reference to the War Diary for 36 Bn. (WO95/2498) I can tell you that there were three casualties to the Bn on 31/5/1918. They were: 17751 Pte W Gordon, 17808 Pte John Robb Woods (late 16145 9 R Irish Fusiliers) and 4560 Pte John Anderson (late 13827 Argyll & Sutherland H) Significantly, they are buried side-by-side in Gwalia Cemetery (Plots 32/33/34 in Row F of Section I) This might mean that theirs deaths were connected - it would be interesting to know what the War Diary says. I can further tell you that Pte Woods' death was reported in The Roll of Honour (de Ruvigny) where, as well as some personal details, it states that he was killed "bringing up supplies to his comrades". If the niece is interested in personal details about Pte Gordon, I could put her in touch with a historian of the Royal Irish Rifles, living in N.Ireland, who may be able to help her further with information about his service, before he transferred to the MGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 ...because I have all of the MGC casualties in searchable database format. I just asked it to give me all the casualties to 4 Bn on that day, and his was the only name to come up. As I'm yet another trying to unravel a family story from partial knowledge, I wonder if you and your database can help. With a great deal of help from others on this forum, I've established that my GF (HARRISON, Alexander Gordon Armstrong) was most likely 1/8th Lancs Fusiliers (No. 4651 then 306858), then 125th MGC, then A Co. 42nd Bn MGC (No. 141748). I'm wondering how much there might be to learn from the details of 125th MGC or 42nd MG Bn casualties - my GF survived and we know almost nothing! Something your lists might help with? Regards, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 136800 Pte George Alfred Barlow, DOW 3/11/1918, serving with 4 Bn. Previously M/335130 ASC, aged 19, son of Mr & Mrs G Barlow of 18 Tamworth St, Lichfield. If it helps, his ASC number shows he was originally a Mechanical Transport driver who enlisted after November 1916 Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev barlow Posted 16 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2006 If it helps, his ASC number shows he was originally a Mechanical Transport driver who enlisted after November 1916 Stephen Stephen A little more of the jigsaw falls into place - thanks, very much appreciated (isn't this a brilliant site?!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 16 March , 2006 Share Posted 16 March , 2006 Patesian, sorry I missed your post till today. Thanks for the info I am sure his niece will be thrilled. I will ask her about the historian. Although she has lived in Essex for many years I believe she still has family in Co Down. Regards Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patesian Posted 16 March , 2006 Share Posted 16 March , 2006 As I'm yet another trying to unravel a family story from partial knowledge, I wonder if you and your database can help. With a great deal of help from others on this forum, I've established that my GF (HARRISON, Alexander Gordon Armstrong) was most likely 1/8th Lancs Fusiliers (No. 4651 then 306858), then 125th MGC, then A Co. 42nd Bn MGC (No. 141748). I'm wondering how much there might be to learn from the details of 125th MGC or 42nd MG Bn casualties - my GF survived and we know almost nothing! Something your lists might help with? Regards, Steve Survivors are always more difficult! I can't find GF Harrison on the database or in the 1914-15 Star rolls that I haven't yet added. This would suggest that he did not qualify for the Star (ie. did not go abroad until after 31/12/1915). You would need to check this by obtaining the medal index card (on-line at National Archives). By his number, it would appear that he transferred-in to the MGC on or about the 18th March 1918 and since 125 Company ceased to exist after 23rd February 1918 (formation date of 42 Bn from 125/126/127 & 268 Coys), on the face of it he would not have served in 125 Coy at all. However, you say that he did and I would be interested to know if your information has been substantiated? The War Diaries would almost certainly not mention him by name and would only serve to give a general picture of what was going on. They can be found in WO95/2655 and 4594 (125 Coy) and WO95/2650 (for 42 Bn). Sorry I can't do any more at the moment - much more work yet to be done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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