Recruitment to Scottish regiments.

[MParnham]

My curiosity about this was provoked by the story of my great uncle Pt George Percy Tayor (6059 later 332800). He served in the 9th Highland Light Infantry. He was killed aged 19 at the battle of the Menin Road on the 25th Sept 1917.

He enlisted in the second week of May 1916 in his home town – Doncaster. He was a born and bred Yorkshireman, as were both his parents. On one side his grandparents were also Yorkshire folk, on the other Northumbrians. It has always been a family mystery how he ended up in the Glasgow Highlanders!

Perhaps this sort of thing was common? – My father wonders if he would have needed a translator!

But seriously I can’t help wonder how recruits like George would have fitted in and how the other men viewed them. George was no more Scottish than I am – the surviving photo’s all show him a kilt - history does not record what he thought of this, but perhaps it was almost as strange to the average Glaswegian / lowland Scots recruit as it was to him.

Martin

[CSMMo]

Not the HLI, but letters and diaries from men of the 4th Highland (Mountain) Brigade, RGA (TF) who fought in Gallipoli, Egypt and Salonika, refer to those from anywhere outside the Highlands and Islands of West Scotland as "Londoners" and talked about their easy assimilation. Some even learned a bit of Gaellic which helped as the Highland ponies often only responded to commands in Gaellic. Many maintained these associations decades after the war, traveling all the way to Stornoway in some instances for April 25th reunion dinners.

Mike Morrison

[Graham Stewart]

Martin,

A very interesting point as during some research some years ago one of our local newspapers gave recruitng figures per head of population for the U.K. and the Scots came out on top. Even then it struck me as being a bit unrealistic considering the populations of the four nations at that time. The bulk of Scotlands population would have lain in the Lowlands rather than the Highlands, which had been depleted since the clearances followed by economic migration.

What I do know for certain is that the Kings Own Scottish Borderers did infact recruit a large number of men from the Hartlepool area and that one of the Highland T.F.A.'s(I forget which one) sent a request to Durham T.F.A. asking to recruit from the County. This is recorded in the Durham T.F.A. minute books and the reply was that "under no circumstances" could Durham allow them to recruit from the County.

I also have an 1896 "Pamphlet for Recruiters", which are the rules and regulations for recruiting and this one is for the 17th Regimental District i.e. Coalville area of Leicester and among units for men to be recruited are the Royal Scots Fusiliers and Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. The latter of which has a hand written note in red ink which reads "Scotchmen only".

Graham.

[CSMMo]

Graham, that's fascinating insight into the workings of the recruiting system. Do you know if the instances mentioned regarding TFA recruiting was pre-war, wartime, or post war?

Mike Morrison

[stephen7]

hi all. i was directed here through a rootschat member, and coincedently, this was going to be one of my questions. My grandfather was born in cambridge in 1895 and joined the 2nd battalion( i think) scottish rifles.i believe they were part of ( or became) the cameronians, which then joined the seaforth highlanders. which became something else. ( all gets a little confused for me there.

I have been in touchwith a relative of my grandfather's brother who didn't even know our side of the family existed,as my grandfather met a local lass whilst staioned at hamilton, and settled there. I have always presumed he had a family feud and went as far away as possible, hence joining a scottish regiment, but now i am not so sure, if this was a common practice.

steve

[carninyj]

A lot of Ulstermen ended up in Scottish regiments because many were working in Scotland before the outbreak of war. Poverty had driven them to look for work on Scottish farms and in mines, shipyards, textile plants, etc. The Ulster-Scots links - many men had Scottish relatives - may also contributed to the desire to serve in Scottish regiments.

Some Scottish regiments may also have recruited in Belfast; I think the Seaforths did so.

Regards

Carninyj

[MParnham]

Thank you for all of your responses – very interesting. It appears it might have been quite common. This might help explain the ‘anomalous’ recruiting figures for Scotland that you read Graham. I suppose I was hoping that someone had done some research into this and could give some definitive figures (perhaps I will when I eventually retire!).

My guess is (and seems to be backed up by your responses) that the Scottish regiments looked for expatriate Scotsman in England, as the war progressed and casualties mounted I would not be surprised if this became more prevalent. I also suspect that on occasions just having a ‘Scottish’ name (such as my great uncle with Taylor) was enough to land you in a Scottish regiment even though any Scottish connection was buried in the distant past.

Martin

[Graham Stewart]

Martin & Mike,

The incident regarding a request to recruit in Durham by a Highland T.F.A. was infact during the Great War, but can I hell remember which one. I may have it written down somewhere, but I have research notes scattered all over covering what I was doing at the time. The K.O.S.B. Battalions which recruited from Hartlepool appear to be the 7th & 8th Battalions.

Graham.

[robertsim]

Another possibility is that he was drafted in to the GH following heavy losses which started at High Wood, the amount of casualties on the 14/15 July 1916 meant the GH were effectively no longer fit for battle and received drafts from sources other than the 2/9 and 3/9 HLI. Was he injured at all, if so this may be how he ended up with the GH.

Have you read the War Diary? It's available as a word document from the Royal Highland Fusiliers website along with Shoulder to Shoulder, your Great Uncle is also one of around 4500 listed in Come on Highlanders as serving in the GH.

[MParnham]

Another possibility is that he was drafted in to the GH following heavy losses which started at High Wood, the amount of casualties on the 14/15 July 1916 meant the GH were effectively no longer fit for battle and received drafts from sources other than the 2/9 and 3/9 HLI. Was he injured at all, if so this may be how he ended up with the GH.

Have you read the War Diary? It's available as a word document from the Royal Highland Fusiliers website along with Shoulder to Shoulder, your Great Uncle is also one of around 4500 listed in Come on Highlanders as serving in the GH.

Thank you for this interesting idea - I have read the war diary, and as far as we know he was never injured. He appears to have been drafted straight into the HLI, I think the only answer is for me (one day!) to do some research into the origin of men in Scottish regiments.

Martin

[truthergw]

Thank you for all of your responses – very interesting. It appears it might have been quite common. This might help explain the ‘anomalous’ recruiting figures for Scotland that you read Graham. I suppose I was hoping that someone had done some research into this and could give some definitive figures (perhaps I will when I eventually retire!).

My guess is (and seems to be backed up by your responses) that the Scottish regiments looked for expatriate Scotsman in England, as the war progressed and casualties mounted I would not be surprised if this became more prevalent. I also suspect that on occasions just having a ‘Scottish’ name (such as my great uncle with Taylor) was enough to land you in a Scottish regiment even though any Scottish connection was buried in the distant past.

Martin

Except for the very early days of 1914, i.e. K1&K2, men were directed to the units that needed them most. A man might hope to be posted to a local regiment but if a Scots unit had just suffered heavy losses then that is where he was liable to be sent. Disparaging remarks by the units receiving them implies that they had little or no input into how many replacements they got, how fit they were, or where they came from.

[David McDonald]

In a reversal of the non Scots serving in a Scottish regiment my great great uncle William Sharp served in the 10th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment even though he was from New Cumnock in Ayrshire (South West Scotland). He was killed at Arras on 11th April 1917 and is buried in Guemappe Tank cemetery.

Confirmation of the fact that soldiers were sent to regiments that were short on numbers.

[robertsim]

Except for the very early days of 1914, i.e. K1&K2, men were directed to the units that needed them most. A man might hope to be posted to a local regiment but if a Scots unit had just suffered heavy losses then that is where he was liable to be sent. Disparaging remarks by the units receiving them implies that they had little or no input into how many replacements they got, how fit they were, or where they came from.

This rings very true, the GH War Diary was not always complimentary about the "quality of the draft" and there were several comments about some of them not being hardy enough to wear a kilt in the trenches!

[MParnham]

This rings very true, the GH War Diary was not always complimentary about the "quality of the draft" and there were several comments about some of them not being hardy enough to wear a kilt in the trenches!

It’s true! My poor great uncle does not look comfortable in his kilt. He came from a Yorkshire mining village. I am sure he would have attracted a great deal of light hearted banter if he ever dared to appear dressed in it - something along the lines of “By gum - nice legs Percy, you look don't half look good in that dress”

Martin

[truthergw]

It’s true! My poor great uncle does not look comfortable in his kilt. He came from a Yorkshire mining village. I am sure he would have attracted a great deal of light hearted banter if he ever dared to appear dressed in it - something along the lines of “By gum - nice legs Percy, you look don't half look good in that dress”

Martin

Your Greatuncle would have lost all the beautiful manners he learned down the pit. He would have been forced to put aside all the etiquette which had governed his life up to that point. He would have learned to be rude. He would have been able to demonstrate all the new words his new Scots friends had taught him. He would have told these ex-friends, " Take a flying ***** and if you don't &*^%$ (*"£! out of it, I'll $%£&^ "£(*& you with this ^&%£$% boot". Or words to that effect.

[MParnham]

You clearly have a deep understanding of just how refined Yorkshire miners really were! My father always wondered whether he understood a word the Sergeant Major balled at him - broad Glaswegian on one side and broad Yorkshire on the other. I had trouble understanding my grandfather (his brother) at times, and I am a Yorkshire man.