Patrick H Posted 24 February , 2006 Share Posted 24 February , 2006 I have on another thread received some information on this chap. Flight Lieutenant Maurice William Wallis Eppstein RNAS died aged 20 on the 12th May 1917. Shot down by AA fire over Zeebrugge and crashed in the sea. He is remembered at Dunkirk Town Cem referance V.A.16 Thanks to Pal per ardua I know he was flying a Sopwith Triplane N5456 I have tried elsewhere without success. Can anyone help with the following 1. What Squadron would he have been part of and where were they based on 6th May 1917? 2. As he was Royal Navy Air Service what would have been his main duties? 3. Was there any formal engagement/ action on that day or would he have been alone or part of a pair? 4. I assume that as he was shot down over the sea and is "remembered" at Dunkirk that his body was never found- any thoughts? 5. Any other information which would be of help. He is rememberd on the Cross of Sacrifice in St Marys Chruchyard Lambourne. His father William Charles Eppstein was Vicar of the Church at the time and was formerly Headmaster of Reading School 1894-1914. Maurice Eppstein attended the same school. Do we have anyone with research on Reading School? St Mary's Church Lambourne is in a beautiful setting in the Essex countryside www.oldlambourne.co.uk and is virtually next to the airfield (see my other post on Stapleford Airfield) I can imagine his parents after his death looking across to the flights taking off and landing at Stapleford. Thanks Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Lewis Posted 24 February , 2006 Share Posted 24 February , 2006 1. What Squadron would he have been part of Patrick I can only answer this part of your question - 10 (Naval) Squadron. Regards Doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 24 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2006 Thanks Doug. May I ask how you know that Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 24 February , 2006 Share Posted 24 February , 2006 Eppstein was part of a 6 Triplane patrol being led by the Canadian pilot FSL Percy McNeil. The patrol's objective was to protect the fleet which was engaged in a bombardment of Zebrugge. Eppstein was shot down by AA, thought to be Flakzug 72 near La Ventie. Naval 10 had been "working up" to combat readiness since the end of February without a great deal of progress. A new CO was brought in and proceeded to reorganise the squadron, replacing a lot of pilots with veterans from No.3 Wing. Eppstein joined the squadron on the 20th April just a couple of days before the new CO. Duties at that time would be Fleet patrols, Coastal patrols, line patrols, and escort missions. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 24 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2006 Thanks Michael, very helpful. Would you know where the squadron was based at that time Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 24 February , 2006 Share Posted 24 February , 2006 The squadron was based at Furnes (I am assured by a Belgian colleague that it's pronounced "verner") in Belgium. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 25 February , 2006 Share Posted 25 February , 2006 Patrick, if you are lucky enogh to track down a photograph of Maurice Eppstein could I request a good quality scan for my collection of Naval 10 pilots? I have a little more info here for you: DOB 8th November1896. Jpined RNAS on 10th September 1916 Under instruction at Crystal Palace from 10th September 1916 (disciplinary course - drill, lectures, more drill, getting shouted at - that sort of stuff) Under instruction at Chingford from 14th October 1916 Under instruction at Cranwell from 5th March 1917 At Dover from 7th April 1917 No.10 Squadron from 20th April Maurice claimed a Halberstadt scout shot down in flames at Zarren on the 5th May 1917 at 18.05. There are a couple of possible candidates for Eppstein's victim, the German's losing two pilots in the 4th Army area on the 5th May, though I think we can take the "Halberstadt" reference with a pinch of salt! This was Naval 10's second combat claim. All that was recovered after he was shot down by AA was his seat (marked with his name - I assume this was a cushion), part of a propeller and a glove - these items were picked up by the French destroyer Ariflamme. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 25 February , 2006 Share Posted 25 February , 2006 hello, On 12/5/1917 Zeebrugge was attacked by 4 monitors, supported by a lot of other vessels. The British attack fleet was hidden for german aerial observation by smoke screens. In the air it was protected at high altitude by fighter planes and observation planes. German Flak couldnot reach at the British planes, seen hight and distance. The British monitors fired more than 110 heavy shells, calibre 38 cm. Main target were the locks the U-boats used to get from the Brugge-Zeebrugge canal to the sea. Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAAEd Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 I have on another thread received some information on this chap. Flight Lieutenant Maurice William Wallis Eppstein RNAS died aged 20 on the 12th May 1917. Shot down by AA fire over Zeebrugge and crashed in the sea. He is remembered at Dunkirk Town Cem referance V.A.16 Thanks to Pal per ardua I know he was flying a Sopwith Triplane N5456 IPatrick Looking up details of Triplane N5456 in, 'Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919' by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page (Air-Britain) reveals that Flight Lieutenant Eppstein shot down a Halberstadt near Zarren on 6.5.17 (not 5.5.17 as sated elsewhere in this thread) and was himself brought down, belived by Flakzung, in the sea near Blankenberghe on 12.5.17. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 PetrolPigeon Looking up details of Triplane N5456 in, 'Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919' by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page (Air-Britain) reveals that Flight Lieutenant Eppstein shot down a Halberstadt near Zarren on 6.5.17 (not 5.5.17 as sated elsewhere in this thread) and was himself brought down, belived by Flakzung, in the sea near Blankenberghe on 12.5.17. Why didn't you look this up in "A History Of No.10 Squadron RNAS in WW1" published by Schiffer and written by myself? The weather was bad on the 6th May and Naval 10 did not fly. I am more than prepared to apologise for mistakes but you had better have your facts right before I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAAEd Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 PetrolPigeon Why didn't you look this up in "A History Of No.10 Squadron RNAS in WW1" published by Schiffer and written by myself? The weather was bad on the 6th May and Naval 10 did not fly. I am more than prepared to apologise for mistakes but you had better have your facts right before I do. Oh! Dear! I was simply repeating information discovered in the cited book. Which you would have appreciated if you had taken my message in fully before blasting me with a salvo. As it happens I do not have a copy of your book to hand [1], and frankly, given your tone, I am unlikely to go looking for a copy. Now knowing the circumstances, perhaps you should apologise as your argument is clearly with Mr Sturtivant and not myself. [1] Why should you assume that I have even heard of your book, particularly as a Google search only turns up one hit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Söderbaum Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Hi As CNOCK indicates... Eppstein was with rather certainty NOT brought down by German Flak. Also Flakzug 72 was serving in another area, around Lille...The claim from this unit was also not confirmed as a victory, instead it was confirmed as jzLg (forced to land) which had an half-official status but no victory numbers were given... However the Marine Feld Jagstaffel did claim two Sopwith-1s brough down in sea in the "given" area... Gunnar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 PetrolPigeon, I will apologise for my tone - I'm sorry, I'm suffering from a severe sinus headache and have been indisposed all weekend. When contraticted by a quote from a book which is quite clearly wrong I jumped off the deep end! If I am wrong in my assertion that Eppstein shot down a German machine on the 5th May, then I can only say that the Naval 10 records officer was quite clearly able to predict the future as he wrote it up on the 5th! Eppstein himself submitted a formal claim on the 6th May, referring quite clearly to his flight and fight on the 5th May. I have no argument with Ray, he's a nice bloke and does a wonderful job with his Air Britain books. When compiling the tens of thousands of little snippets of information, mistakes are bound to creep in. He probably took Eppstein's report and looked at the date at the top without seeing the patrol date lower down. Gunnar, nice to see you here! The Naval 10 patrol's report was quite clear that there was no contact with enemy aircraft but there was some opposition put up by enemy anti-aircraft fire. The first patrol was "relieved" by a second patrol led by Collishaw who also specifically mentioned that the only contact with enemy aircraft was with two Seaplanes. Of course, Eppstein could have suffered from simple engine failure, though if so, I would have thought that he would have attempted to ditch close to a ship. What time of day did Osterkamp and the rest of MFJ1 claim for their Sopwiths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Söderbaum Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Hi Mike One of the Sopw-1s claimed by the Marine Jasta was at 7:00, that would be 5:00 or 6:00 British time... I dont have the time at moment for the second victory against what the German described as Sopw-1s, but some of the "early" victory reports from this unit are actually to be found in the arhive in Freiburg... I havent made copies of these yet... From a German view it seems to have been rather much air fighting in this area this day... Gunnar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Gunnar, 5.00 am would have been as they arrived over the fleet, 6.00am would have been about 3/4's of the way through the patrol. It seems to me to be a bit odd that with 6 aircraft circling around above the fleet, wouldn't at least one pilot have noticed a combat with one of their number getting shot down, it seems a more feasible scenario if a tail ender or straggler was picked off as they returned or if Eppstein was forced to return early and caught wih a machine down on power or no gun. Speculation, I know. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Gunnar, I have just consulted Collishaw's "Air Command", not a task to take lightly as it tends to be riddled with errors. He reports that the Naval 10 patrols were detailed to fly much lower than normal, at 8000 feet. He states that the Germans put nothing into the air during the shelling but that they reacted as the Naval force began its withdrawal. He states that seven Sopwith Pups from Naval 4 met a force of Albatros fighters near Zeebrugge just before 6.30am. I won't go into the Naval 4 claims which seem a trifle exaggerated He states that Eppstein was downed by A-A fire, also that he was a midshipman in the RN at the outbreak of war. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAAEd Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 PetrolPigeon, I will apologise for my tone - I'm sorry, I'm suffering from a severe sinus headache and have been indisposed all weekend. When contraticted by a quote from a book which is quite clearly wrong I jumped off the deep end! If I am wrong in my assertion that Eppstein shot down a German machine on the 5th May, then I can only say that the Naval 10 records officer was quite clearly able to predict the future as he wrote it up on the 5th! Eppstein himself submitted a formal claim on the 6th May, referring quite clearly to his flight and fight on the 5th May. I have no argument with Ray, he's a nice bloke and does a wonderful job with his Air Britain books. When compiling the tens of thousands of little snippets of information, mistakes are bound to creep in. He probably took Eppstein's report and looked at the date at the top without seeing the patrol date lower down. Apology accepted. I have since tracked down info on your book, looks interesting but could turn out a little pricey. Not an agent on this side (UK) of the big pond is there by any chance? As my historical interests cover a wide range of naval maritime (I have a number of books on Trafalgar to read for review in a journal) and aviation matters, and a few others, books tend to be largish expenditure. I'll ammend my copy of Sturtivant in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 27 February , 2006 Share Posted 27 February , 2006 Schiffer books are available from their agent, Bushmill Books of Kew, or they can be ordered via Waterstones, Amazon etc. I agree, they are too expensive! If a book costs $50, we have to pay £50. It's not right. Schiffer quality, however, is beyond reproach. Production quality is superb. Our American friends complain about the $50 price tag!!! You might try your local library, the book is in the UK library system and for about £3.00 your local library can obtain it on the inter-library loan scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 27 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2006 Gunnar, He states that Eppstein was downed by A-A fire, also that he was a midshipman in the RN at the outbreak of war. Mike Mike do you have any more information on Eppstein being in the RN, enlistment etc Thanks Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAAEd Posted 27 February , 2006 Share Posted 27 February , 2006 Schiffer books are available from their agent, Bushmill Books of Kew, or they can be ordered via Waterstones, Amazon etc. I agree, they are too expensive! If a book costs $50, we have to pay £50. It's not right. Schiffer quality, however, is beyond reproach. Production quality is superb. Our American friends complain about the $50 price tag!!! You might try your local library, the book is in the UK library system and for about £3.00 your local library can obtain it on the inter-library loan scheme. Thanks for all that. Bushmills do not appear to have a web presence. That $50=£50 price regimen I am all to familiar with from buying computer books awhile back, I have now given up on those. I was only asking if there was a UK agent wherby this pricing rip-off could be avoided, useful as the price of your book is a tad under $60 and with only 150 pages the quality ought to be good. I have a number of books on order through inter-library on other historical topics and another £3 spent this way is dead money as I am considering getting hold of a copy of this 10 RNAS history. I am being drawn into this by association with Henry Allingham (although he was not on No. 10) and providing background for a journal article. Besides I do have a long time interest in aspects of WW1. Back on topic. I see that there is nothing noted for the two days of the 5th and 6th May 1917 in C.P.O. Bartlett's 'IN THE TEETH OF THE WIND'. Sure Bartlett was on No 5 (prior to 31st December 1916 B Squadron of 5 Wing RNAS, according to Bartlett) and not No 10, but that alone suggests it was a compartively quiet couple of days in this area of operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 27 February , 2006 Share Posted 27 February , 2006 and with only 150 pages the quality ought to be good. Over 200 actually! I don't know why they put that. Bushmills do not appear to have a web presence. Oops, silly me - Bushwood books - I must have been thinking about Irish Whisky Bushwood Patrick, sorry, I have no more information about his RN service - opens up another avenue of research though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAAEd Posted 27 February , 2006 Share Posted 27 February , 2006 Oops, silly me - Bushwood books - I must have been thinking about Irish Whisky Bushwood Patrick, OK! Cracked it. Copy now on order. If it arrives before I finish putting the nest journal issue to bed, with the Henry Allingham piece in, I'll give the book a plug, although I doubt many of our members will be able or willing to fork out on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 27 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2006 Ok Mike, many thanks to you and others for your help Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted 27 February , 2006 Share Posted 27 February , 2006 PetrolPigeon, it should arrive very quickly, Bushwood are very good. Can we see your piece on Henry Allingham after its published - he's a truly remarkable chap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 28 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2006 Chaps, I am going to post Eppstein in the navy section, hopefully to get something. I know you are air chaps but you may find it interesting Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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