Royal Garrison Artillery

[Guest JWS]

Greetings to all.

I am seeking as much information as I can on my grandfathers war service.

He was Gunner JW Sadler

Service No: 53052

Royal Garison Artillery

28th Seige Battery

I have his medals information, the article in the Archive CD Books as to when

he joined and his numerous wounds.

I well remember some of the stories he told me, some most amusing and some rather

sad.

What I never asked, and he never mentioned was a discription the field gun that they

had to manouver into certain locations, sometimes taking hours of gruelling work, only

to be ordered to re-locate again without firing a shot.

I have looked at the section regarding seige batteries but the 28th is not listed, and those

that are listed indicate the gun to have been a fixed or rail mounted piece, which seems to

be in conflict with his gun that was obviously moved around!.

So perhaps someone can advise me what gun and where can I obtain a picture of one.

TIA

JWS

[pud2006]

Unfortunately I can't help with your specific request about the type of gun or a photograph, but I see there are references to the activities of the 28th Siege Battery on the following site - http://www.arap75.dsl.pipex.com/HTT%20Diary%20-%20July.htm - and consulting the entries in the unit's War Diary (WO 95/212) for periods of interest might provide some information.

In my own case, I'm struggling to obtain information about the 221st Siege Battery RGA, and living ~600 miles from Kew I've had to resort to ordering copies of sections of the unit's War Diary from the National Archives through the website https://secure.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp.

Paper copies of the pages for one month of interest from the War Diary cost about £10 inc. p&p, but at least some of the information was directly relevant to my interest and the rest provided interesting insights into their activities.

Good luck anyway

Paul

[Guest JWS]

Hello ww1digger.

Your response to my post and the link you have provided is very much

appreciated.

Is'nt it odd that when we a had the chance to ask questions most of us did not

do so, as a young lad I was more interested in my grandfathers exploits and

not the actual gun.

As mentioned my grandfather spoke often of how they had to go here or there

and lay the gun again and again, yet it appears that most (if not all) seige

batteries had massive guns on rails, but surely they had to take the gun where

it was needed!.

Visitors have just arrived so I will save the link and look at it tomorrow, it is

almost 7pm here in Western Australia.

Thanks again.

Regards.

JWS

[Hoplophile]

A siege battery might be armed with a very large artillery pieces - one that was so large that it had to be mounted on a railway car - or it might be armed with pieces of a more manageable size, such as 6-inch howitzers.

The 28th Siege Battery was one of a series of siege batteries that were formed in the winter of 1914-1915. Prior to being assigned to one of these batteries, gunners were trained in the coast defence companies of the RGA. Thus, it is quite possible that the gunner in question had experience with both the fixed armament of a coastal fortress and the more mobile pieces used by the BEF.

[pud2006]

Not knowing anything about siege batteries previously, I was surprised to find that Siege Battery armament ranged from ubiquitous 6" howitzers up to the large railway guns, and initially I didn't have a clue about what the 221st SB fought with.

I've read a number of the available published histories of Siege Batteries, generally written by one of the officers shortly after WW1 with the assistance of other surviving members of the unit, and personal and official diaries, etc., and I was surprised to find how much man-handling of muti-ton ('old money' - now 'tonnes' under the European system) artillery pieces or components went on with or without the assistance of rudimentary lifting equipment, with the associated risk of significant injury.

On a related thread, although born in Scotland, the twin brother of the siege battery gunner I'm interested in served as a sapper in No.2 ('Foreign Legion') Section the 7th Field Company Engineers of the AIF, having volunteered in 1915 while living in Sydney. He returned to Sydney in 1919 after recovering in England from being gassed with most of his section while sheltering in cellars on the Somme in May 1918 (only 5 men unaffected out of ~40).

One of their brothers (my mother-in-law's father) had emigrated to South Africa before WW1, volunteered in Natal in 1914, and served in several South African units in various parts East Africa until discharged in 1919.

It certainly was a small world in 1914!

I was lucky enough to visit WA twice in the late 1980s, and was in the air in a 747 on the way back to Heathrow when the Lockerbie 747 went down, causing my wife some concern initially!

I still have the "G'day from WA" t-shirt, but 'Small' just doesn't cover it any more!

Enough rambling, good luck hunting

Paul

[essdee]

JWS

Here's the Allocation of Batteries for 28th Siege Battery together with the NA Ref for their diary.

WO 95/212 28 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1915 Sept. - 1917 Oct

Stuart

[Guest JWS]

Hello to Paul, Essdee & Hoplophile.

Thanks a million for all of your the replies to my post.

To Paul.

G'Day mate, I appreciate your comments, my grandfather was also gassed,

or 'burnt' as the report states, and although he came from Salford where

there was a military hospital (later to be my school) and where his wife and

lived, he was sent to Bath, Somerset to recover his sight and treatment to

his private parts that had come into contact with mustard gas on the ground

that commenced to burn quickly and from grabbing at his painful crotch he

then put his head into his hands and infected his eyesight, he remembered

the pain all through his life until his death in 1973.

__________________________________________

To Hoplophile.

Again my appreciation for your comments.

From what I can remember of my grandfathers stories, I would assume it was

probably the howitzer asone time they took many hours locating the gun in the

rear of a damaged chateau and while laying the gun and digging they came upon

buried silver cuttlery, each crew member taking a couple or so spoons each, but

an officer that was due to go on leave said he would take the large set back to

england and share it with the crew after the war! it never happened of course.

_________________________________________

To essdee.

Thanks for the link to the diaries of the 28th seige battery, I am going there right

now, the diar of Henry Tabor for the month of July 1916 has whet my appetite for

more information.

If only I had my grandfather sitting beside me now!, he would have been over the

moon about this.

JWS

[pud2006]

Good morning from the frozen North!

For completeness I should have mentioned that RGA armament ranged from 60-pounders up to the big railway guns - The Long, Long Trail website contains an overview if you're interested.

My mother-in-law's gassed uncle (7th FCE) was treated in Torquay, then spent what was left of the war in camps in Wiltshire and Essex before being returned to Sydney. He died in London in 1949, unfortunately somewhat before my time, aged 65. My mother-in-law remembers him visiting the family in Scotland most years when she was young, but she doesn't think he ever talked about his experiences in front of her, and her father never spoke to her about his service in Africa although he lived to the age of 72.

With reference to the information about the 28th Siege Battery from essdee, if the unit was equipped with 6" howitzers in 1915 I think they would initially have been the original 6" 30 cwt howitzer because the improved 6" 26 cwt howitzer wasn't introduced until mid-late 1916. I've attached some images of the 6" 26 cwt howitzer (from other websites), but I don't have an image of the 6" 30 cwt howitzer to hand.

It might be worth checking the 28th's War Diary for different periods because I found that although the 221st Siege Battery was equipped with 6 off 6" 26 cwt howitzers in 1918, the unit's War Diary confirmed that the unit was actually equipped with 6 off 8" howitzers MkVI at the time my mother-in-law's gunner uncle was killed in Ypres in Oct 1917.

Paul

[Guest JWS]

G'day ww1digger.

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

I have been in touch with the grandson of Henry Tabor (RAF) that was assigned to a

number of siege batteries including the 28th during the Somme push July 1 to July 30

and his personal diary was most interesting.

His job was to receive radio morse concerning enemy positions and relaying this info

to the battery in question, which means he may well have, and probaly did chat to my

grandfather during the two months he was assigned.

Henry's grandson Peter has looked at the 28th war diaries and I hope I can ask him to

do so again and let me know what is worth ordering.

From the NA site they are quite explicit on being careful what oen orders as in some cases

the information/diaries can result in many thousands of pages, so perhaps I should wait to

see if Peter Tabor can advise me further.

There certainly seems to be a great variation in gun size etc, so I will have to be happy knowing

at least some of the types my grandfather fired, and my sincere thanks for that.

I have searched for a number of years for more info and this website is the only one to have had

members that have helped me.

My grandfather John W Sadler 53052 gunner born 1886 eventually immigrated to W.A. with my

grandmother (b.1887) in 1971, he died here in 1973 and grandmother went on to 1982.

Mike.

[pud2006]

Mike,

UK NATIONAL ARCHIVES

I find the UK NA ordering system very frustrating in that you have to submit a copying request not knowing quite how large or small a task it is, for which you are charged a minimum up-front fee of £10.

You then have to wait some days for an estimate to be e-mailed to you for you to accept before any copying takes place, so it can take several weeks before you know what you're getting for your money, but I guess it would be a lot cheaper for you than flying to the UK, staying in a hotel, and visiting Kew in person.

My first requests for copying were actually too timid and did not amount to £10, and unfortunately the NA keeps the difference rather than allowing you to build up credit.

Asking for a month's worth of Diary as paper copies seems to be working out at about £10 including p&p in the UK, but it's bound to vary from War Diary to War Diary.

I did travel to London in 2004 to spend 3 days at Kew attempting to find individual Service Records (many destroyed by German bombing in WW2), and out of about a dozen possibles I ended up with just 2, one of which had been part-destroyed in WW2.

However, the information was extremely interesting and useful, particularly as the best preserved record was my great-grandfather's. He turned out to have ended up in The Tank Corps, something that my mother & great-aunt (his surviving daughter, aged 89) didn't know, and I ended up travelling to the Bovington Tank Museum in Dorset to look up his unit in their archive, material not available anywhere else as it turned out.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to spend nearly enough time at Kew, and the researchers based in London have such an advantage in that respect.

AUSTRALIA

By way of contrast, I was able to request a free electronic copy from the Australian National Archives of the Service Records for my mother-in-law's uncle who was in the 7th FCE AIF (26 pages), although I did have to wait several months to get it.

I was also able to obtain an electronic copy of the embarkation roll for his departure from Sydney, which provided useful information including his initial rate of pay, and reasonable quality electronic copies of 7th FCE images, all for free and immediately available.

I was able to order a photographic-quality paper copy of a November 1917 photograph of the whole Company (~200 guys) in which most personnel were identified, including him, which is the only WW1 photograph we have of him - it did cost £18, but arrived safely within a few weeks.

Fortunately a unit history was published in the 1930s, and I was able to obtain a copy through www.abebooks.co.uk, and he is actually mentioned in it.

SOUTH AFRICA

Although there isn't an online service, I was able to obtain the complete South African Service Record for my mother-in-law's father through a South African researcher for an embarrassingly small charge only requested on delivery of the material to me, i.e. he paid all his costs up-front!

CANADA

I have also obtained free electronic copies of Canadian attestation papers for more distant relatives from the Canadian National Archives, and could have obtained paper copies of their full Service Records for 40 cents a page (at that time) + p&p.

All in all, the Australian National Archives have provided the greatest amount of online information for the least cost, so good on you Australia, although it's a crying shame that virtually all Australian census records were destroyed along the way as a matter of policy! It's bad enough that we have to wait 100 years before we can see the UK census records, but at least they still exist to be released.

Paul

[Guest JWS]

Good morning Paul.

An interesting insight to the UK NA and again much appreciated.

To be honest I am not at all sure what I would expect for the 28th diaries, other

than from the point of view of military research or campaign history.

The placenames in which his battery were operating are pretty well ingrained into

my memory, many of which I have found on maps, and the other members of the

gun crew, those that survived and those that did not, are also in my memory, along

with the stories, so I wonder how much more I need to know.

There has been one mystery over the years that has puzzled me, my grandfather

often spoke of the day he saw his pal hit with shrapnel and he died, he always said

his name was Bombadier Billy Wells, but I cannot find a suitable match for this man,

I have the 'Soldiers that Died' disk and there are two William Wells, one kileed in

1917 (but I remember 1916 as his death) of the RGA, and another Acting Bobmbadier

killed in 1916 but he is recorded as serving with Royal Horse Artillery/Royal Field Artillery.

So I wonder if men from other regiments,corps etc would be serving with a siege battery,

and because they were good pals it appears that they served together for same time, and

they did not come from the same place in Salford, he was from Seaforth, Liverpool some

30miles away, so a bit of a puzzle.

Getting back to the diaries of the 28th, and in your opinion, what mention of the crew and

the names of the crew are like to be included, as you have probably guessed I am more

interested in the individual rather than the military aspect.

My wife and I were in england/Ireland in 1997 and 1998, but at that time we were more

interested in her genealogy, it was'nt until 2000/1 that I started on my own genealogy, and

as my wife requires a wheelchair these days I cannot see us ever making the trip again.

Regards.

Mike.

[pud2006]

Good morning Mike,

I started out hunting for specific information about individuals while helping my wife to trace her family tree, but ended up with a general interest in WW1 (and many other things) along the way.

I'm sure you are right that the War Diary is unlikely to contain a specific reference to an individual, but it's the possibility that keeps me looking - like the references to 'my' chap in the 7th FCE unit history, the reference in the War Dairy for the 221st to the death of 'my' gunner and details of what his unit was doing at the time.

My wife and I (and our parents) have realised that we should have asked so much more when people were still alive. Unfortunately most of the characters who served in WW1 had died before we were born, and our parents were brought up not to pry if people didn't volunteer information. You seem to have been more fortunate with respect to your grandfather's experiences.

Anyway, I've attached a few images of the 6in 30 cwt howitzer that was in service at the start of WW1 in case you haven't seen it (image credit "British Artillery 1914-19 - Heavy Artillery", Osprey Publishing).

I believe the first improved 26 cwt version was delivered in May 1916.

Paul

[Guest JWS]

Hi Paul.

Thanks for the pics, they are all going onto a CD for future generations.

How right you are, we should have asked questions but in reality you are correct

again in stating "one shoud never pry" and yes I did ask my grandfather questions

but I did more listening than asking!!.

I enjoyed (no matter how many times I heard them) the stories, some very sad and

in one instance grandfather and his pal Billy Wells escorted a wounded crew member

to the nearest field hopital, and while waiting for him to be attended they sat down with

a german soldier that was seriosly wounded, he had lost most of his bottom jaw, they

asked (using sign language) what had happened, he indicated that he had been struck

in the jaw by a lance!, (such an odd weapon in 1916) anyway they tried to give him as

much comfort as possible, and he showed them pictures of his family.

Next day they decided to make another quick visit to see how he was, but he had died

during the night, and he was still clutching at his throat, they assumed he had been in pain

but on closer inspection they found he was clutch his iron cross, they managed to remove

it and along with his wallet inc pictures they sent them to the only address in the wallet.

Grandfather often wondered , and hoped, his family received them, adn so do I.

BTW, I have most of the Australian BD&M and for most states, although my S.A. birth

CD has stopped working, or rather my back-up copy no longer works, and the original

along with a couple of other CD's, which I loaned to our local senior citizens, were stolen

from the car of the lady I loaned them to, and they cost around $240 each, alas she was

not insured and my insurer would not accept a claim, one of those things I suppose.

So! if I can assist you with any research let me know.

Later friend!

Mike.

[pud2006]

Hi Mike,

I checked with the CWGC website (http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14) and I found the same 2 possible records you mentioned for Billy Wells - Bombardier Wm Edwin Wells RFA (age 24, wife in Birmingham) who died 26/09/1917, and Acting Bombadier W.S. Wells RFA (age unknown) who died 06/09/1916.

The Medal Index record for my gunner identified a RFA Service No. before/as well as the RGA Service No. that is stated in the CWGC website record of his death, and the only photo we have of him shows a RFA shoulder badge on his uniform. Other Forum members have indicated that they don't think it uncommon for personnel to be transferred from the RFA to the RGA.

Have you obtained the Medal Index record for your grandfather? If not, this might confirm that he was in the RFA before the RGA, which would explain the Billy Wells story, and his tales of moving [lighter] guns around a lot, but it won't tell you which RFA unit he was in. You can obtain the record online from the UK NA.

On the family tree front/hunt, unfortunately the Australian BM&D records won't help because the sapper in the AIF was born/baptised in Scotland, never married, and died in London. However, I will take you up on the offer if we identify anyone else in Australia.

The SA records would definitely have been of interest because my wife had (probably still has) family there from the early 1900s, and we have a letter from the early 1930s, and a death record from 1947.

Thanks for sharing some of your grandfather's stories.

Paul

[Guest JWS]

Morning Paul.

Yes I have checked the meadal index and I have his medals indicating RGA, so I can

only assume that Billy Wells was actually with the RFA and stationed with the RGA?.

Grandfather always refered to Billy as 'bombadier' and I also remember that Billy died

in 1916 because grandfathers brother-in-law George Wilkinson (rifleman) also died at

about the same time, and Billy Wells died on 6/9/1916 and George Wilkinson on 25/8/1916,

just a couple of weeks difference, so the RHA/RFA W. Wells must be him.

Perhaps someone with more military knowledge can confirm this sort of thing happened.

On a lighter note!, were you ever in the service, if so then this will sound just like your drill

sergeant......an anecdote from my grandfather:

On the morning of first parade of inductees of the RGA, hundreds of men were ordered to

assemble on the parade ground in alphabetical groups, within a few minutes most men were

in their respective group, but one man was still wandering around and under the stare of the

drill sergeant, "That man there" bellowed the sergeant, "Whats you name" ....it's Philips, came

the reply "Then get over there with the 'F' group, screamed the sergeant!!!

Early morning visit to the hospital so must away.

Mike.

[pud2006]

Good morning Mike,

I didn't have the pleasure of serving Queen & Country but my father-in-law, who just missed WW2 and did his National Service in North Africa and Palestine, has a few stories to tell, like my uncle who did his time as a radar operator in Hong Kong.

Both chaps never left home again (apart from the odd holiday abroad), so National Service really was an 'exotic' experience for them, if you can call building bridges in Libya and being shot at and potentially blown up in Palestine just before the British withdrawal exotic.

I have letters sent home by my Nan's brother when he was serving in an anti-aircraft unit in India during WW2. As a young Cheshire lad who hadn't left his home town before, he obviously found the whole experience bemusing and exotic. Unfortunately his health was affected and he died in 1949 in his 30s.

My remaining great-uncle (84) initially served as an engine fitter at one of the aircrew training establishments in Canada during WW2, and towards the end of the war he was involved in decommissioning airfields that were no longer required in various parts of Africa, so he certainly travelled about a bit too.

I didn't know about much about this until my late 30s, and in my 20s I had thought my travels to foreign parts were something different!

All the best

Paul

[Guest JWS]

Hi Paul.

Serving ones country was for some a worthwhile experience, for others nothing

less than a nightmare.

As for me I joined up in 1958 for 21 years (6 plus options) but I had no sooner

got in and I was tossed out, they had found a slight heart murmer so my induction

was not completed, they were smart enough to get me out so that I could not claim

a pension!!, but I did not know this until many years later.

I have started another thread concerning the death of the german soldier at the hands

of the Bengal Lancer, not much feed back as yet, but I was surprised to see one post

say his ancestors was killed by a lance, yet he was a british soldier, so the plot has

somewhat thickened and now we appear to have a german ally that waged war tn the

same fashion!......interesting to say the least.

After this investigation I want to find where my great uncle joined up, I know his Regiment

and other but cannot find him where I expected to, as they all lived together at one address,

yet he is not listed in the Salford CD Archives Book. I know he married a nurse from the

Isle of Man, but assume she was working at a nearby hospital, so more detective work now

required!!.

Regards.

Mike.

[ororkep]

Mike,

You may be interested in the following information re the 28th Siege from the 1st chapter of the war diary.

The 28th left Southampton on the 4th September 1915 on the ‘Empress Queen’ with 7 Officers and 163 OR. The guns (4 x 6-in howitzers) followed with ammunition trucks on the much slower ‘Mount Temple’. The personnel were made up of 1 Major. 1 Captain, 4 Sabalt, 1 BSM, 1 BQMS, 4 Sgts, 2 smiths, 1 wheeler, 6 Corps, 6 Bombrs, 120 gunners, 6 Batmen, 2 looks like Tprs but cannot make out. 1 AOC attached and 1 base store man.

They were not horse drawn from the start but had the following transport: 4 FWD, 1 spare FWD, 8 Ammunition Lories and 3 Baggage Lorries. 2 stores Lories, 2 platforms, 1 workshop. 2 motor vehicles and 8 motor cycles, 2 with sidecars. Quite a logistical exercise.

Rgds Paul