Royal Welch Fusiliers

[staffsreg]

a question to all our Welsh members,

Why were the Royal Welch Fusiliers so tenacious in battle, was it a point to prove,

were their NCO'S and Officers so much better than the rest?

They are a regiment any Brigadier would relish under his command, yet without

being a 'classier' up-market regiment such as the Queens Westminsters et al.

An 'Elite' force.

just what made them 'gel 'so well?

[Muerrisch]

They were upmarket.

Wonder not.

[staffsreg]

Hi Langley, I thought you'd reply to this one! LOL

Could you expand on your answer though?

was it the calibre of man or leadership or nco's or simply Spirit?

[Muerrisch]

I am only an expert on the two regular battalions. They were officered in 1914 by landed gentry, often English-Welsh borders, with only a handful of aristos. The WOs and NCOs were, in the main, a fine and experienced bunch, and both battalions had given accelerated promotion over the years to men who turned out very well: CQMS Ward [1914] made Captain 1918 [DCM too] and was made a full corporal within 18 months of joining in 1901. The QM, Yates, made Major [MC], and he jumped several ranks c. 1910. This meant that dead men's shoes did not apply. A CSM in 1914 made Lt Col well before the end of the war, and finally, the men were what Frank Richards described as the best fighting men in the world, with a huge Birmingham component.

As the war went on, there was undeniably a deterioration, but the battalions continued to get, and do, the rough jobs.

[Barry Hayter]

GGF was with them (4RWF Pioneers) and whilst I never met him my father remembers him as a 'hard b*stard' with very little time for those who didn't 'get on with it'. I tend to think that if many in the RWFs were similar in nature it would have been a fairly single minded outfit.

In his case he'd served 1888 - 1910 (incl SA Wars) so he bought a wealth of experience.

However he was transfered from the RE Feb 1917 so was probably not viewed as "one of them" .. though I don't know if that's true of course.

[Tim Birch]

Have you read Dunn's "The War the Infantry Knew"? He was the 2nd Battalion's MO throughout the War and there are lots of comments about their professionalism. It's a superb war history of the Battalion, undoubtably one of the finest Regular Battalions fielded by the BEF.

To-wards the end however he is quite scathing about the deteriorating quailty of the new conscript drafts!

[squirrel]

In Captain Jack's Diary he makes similar comments about the quality of some of the replacements.

[BeppoSapone]

The works cited are hardly unbiased.

I am sure that I could come up with plenty of other regiments that thought that they were "it" - even though I have recently discovered that one of my great uncles was in RWF.

I wonder what we would think today if RG and SS and the good Doctor had been with the Hampshires, for example.

Beppo (Ducking back behind sandbags)

[Muerrisch]

Have you read Dunn's "The War the Infantry Knew"? He was the 2nd Battalion's MO throughout the War and there are lots of comments about their professionalism. It's a superb war history of the Battalion, undoubtably one of the finest Regular Battalions fielded by the BEF.

To-wards the end however he is quite scathing about the deteriorating quailty of the new conscript drafts!

Have I read it!?

I can recite it!

It is the best single book if someone asks me for an intro. to 'what was the war like'. Incidentally, Dunn did not serve throughout: Captain JC Dunn DSO, MC and Bar, DCM, MD, DPH, RAMC. arrived from 19 Fd Amb. as the third holder of the 2nd RWF post on 7 November 1915 and left, gassed and worn-out, 22nd May 1918.

Dunn, be it said, was also scathing of some of the [regular] officers who commanded the battalion late in the war.

[Muerrisch]

The works cited are hardly unbiased.

I am sure that I could come up with plenty of other regiments that thought that they were "it" - even though I have recently discovered that one of my great uncles was in RWF.

I wonder what we would think today if RG and SS and the good Doctor had been with the Hampshires, for example.

Beppo (Ducking back behind sandbags)

Ah! but you left out my hero: Frank Richards DCM MM, who CHOSE RWF in 1901.

[Tim Birch]

Have I read it!?

I can recite it!

Oh, I didn't doubt that you had read it! I was suggesting it to Ivan.

Tim

[squirrel]

Not wishing to denigrate RWF in any way, but I think you would probably find similar comments from surviving regimental officers of most pre war infantry battalions.

[BeppoSapone]

Ah! but you left out my hero: Frank Richards DCM MM, who CHOSE RWF in 1901.

You have a point, but I much prefer his book about his time in India.

Many more officers than ORs wrote about WW1, but hardly any ORs wrote about pre-war life in India.

[staffsreg]

Thanks Lads, I knew you wouldn't let me down!!

[Petroc]

Previous coments prompt me to add my usual 'tangent' two-penneth, particularly with regard to the later drafts and conscripts. Dunn was always free and easy with his criticisms, and in his praise where due, a not unnatural trait from an experienced soldier with far more qualification to comment than yours truly!; Nonetheless, as with most aspects of history, one has to apply a few caveats. First, the not-surprisingly regimentally-biassed Reg Colwill ('Through Hell to Victory') is extremely complimentry towards the young reinforcements and hotch-potch of drafts received by his own Regular battalion (2nd Devon) 1918, and of their fighting ability during the particularly nasty series of actions on the Aisne in March of that year. Secondly, Frederick Hodges' autobiographical work ('Men of 18 in 1918') suggests that the fortitude and willingness to 'engage the enemy' amongst young conscripts in the last few months of the war has been much underplayed. Finally, it seems that few have picked up on Dunn's own comments regarding the increasing 'Welshness' of his battalion following the introduction of conscription. Although his views on the ability of some is scathing, I seem to recall his praise for a draft of Welshmen (miners? I forget) as being by far the best and most physically fit his unit had received for a considerable amount of time.....

[gporta]

Previous coments prompt me to add my usual 'tangent' two-penneth, particularly with regard to the later drafts and conscripts.

Petroc, I have similar feelings about conscripts' contribution not getting the recognition it deserves... Maybe because when they were sent to war they felt their job was to do their bit to end it (which they did), and not write novels about it afterwards.

Gloria

[Muerrisch]

Dunn had gone before the 100 days, and the account after May 1918 lacks his personal insight. 2nd RWF had, arguably, a fine 100 days campaign .... the cemeteries on that advance are crowded with their dead, as I can testify, right up to 4 November. Nobody is questioning their courage, but their lack of basic infantry skills was undeniable. To their credit, these inheritors of a fine tradition did the job, albeit a bit clumsily.

[Tim Birch]

the fortitude and willingness to 'engage the enemy' amongst young conscripts in the last few months of the war has been much underplayed.

You make a good point here. After all it was with a mainly conscript army that Haig acheived the final victory.

I have often admired and wondered at the fortitude of these 18 year old boys who were conscripted into the army whether they liked it or not, so different from the niaive enthusiasm of the Kitchener men, yet when the chips were down they proved steady and did their duty.