KIRKY Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Hi always been interested in where the smaller cemeteries were based before being moved into larger ones, such as Green Dump, Bottom Wood etc I know where these locations are but not exactly where the graves were. Is there a guide or information on this subject? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Tony Fellow Pal, Aurel Sercu, is doing a detailed study of those cleared cemeteries in the Salient and I have some information on those in France and Belgium. However, this does not include grave layouts of the closed cemeteries - not sure that any were ever made as a regular exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Terry and Tony, Correct, and I am still moving on with this, every day an hour or two... Finding information on all disappeared (cleared) cemeteries (of all nationalities) in my Province West-Vlaanderen, focussing of course on the Ypres Salient. Quite a job, which (almost) appeared to exceed my capacities, certainly compared to what I thought at the beginning. But very rewarding. To my amazement : the German side is more 'productive' than the British side. As to exact locations and other data there appears to be less information on the British disappeared cemeteries than on the German ones. (Also because the latter are better marked on trench maps.) I think that in a later phase of my research I will need the help from Forum Pals. (And should anyone wish to know something about a Cleared cemetery or so in the Salient right now, please feel free to ask.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 22 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Hi that is a great job you are doing! I am more interested in THe Somme area as I have not had time to visit THe Salient yet! Anyone doing same sort of thing on Somme? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Tony, Yes I had noticed that the names you mentioned are in the Somme area. I have no idea if anybody has ever done that for the Somme. I just thought that someone had to do it for these hundreds of Lost Cemeteries in the Ypres Salient. (Mind you : it started in a very humble way : only my own village, but then, you know how it goes ...) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Aurel, We've had frequent contacts last year regarding German cemeteries around Kemmel. Just about the only region around Ypres with very little info on cleared cemeteries. Have there been any (positive) developments since then? regards Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Hi Roel, I remember the contact (of course). You ask if there have been any "positive developments since then". Yes, provided you can call the fact that this whole thing more and more is growing into a gigantic jigsaw puzzle, a "positive" development. And as to the German side, I can only confirm what I must have told you before : a lot (sometimes too much, and too conflicting) information on the northern part of the Salient, hardly (or not enough) on the southern part. Like Kemmel. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 To Aurel, What a hell of a job, but very rewarding. The results are worth publishing. Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docchippy Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Anything on Marengo farm cemetery - just south of Bard Cottage and North of Essex farm? Exact location, details of graves moved? I believe they all went into Bard Cottage. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 And as to the German side, I can only confirm what I must have told you before : a lot (sometimes too much, and too conflicting) information on the northern part of the Salient, hardly (or not enough) on the southern part. Like Kemmel. At least you've been very helpful so far! the search goes on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 To Aurel, What a hell of a job, but very rewarding. The results are worth publishing. Gilbert Deraedt Gilbert, What publisher would be interested in that ? I myself can hardly think of anything more "boring". (No smiley, for I am serious.) Cemetery after cemetery after cemetery after cemetery... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Anything on Marengo farm cemetery - just south of Bard Cottage and North of Essex farm? Exact location, details of graves moved? I believe they all went into Bard Cottage. Doc Marengo Farm Cemetery is a typical example of how frustrating the search for Lost Cemeteries can be. (And I happen to be particularly interested and motivated in this one since - until 1971 - the location was in my own village (Boezinge) ; now it's Ypres Territory).) Marengo Farm Cemetery - Approx. 200 m south of Bard Cottage Cemetery. I tend to believe that since "Marengo House" was there indeed. West side of the road (Diksmuidseweg). The HouseCan be found on trench maps. However, another source (not very accurate however) locates the cemetery 350 west of the road; just east of the railroad. - I have not found one single contemporary trench map marking the location of Marengo Cemetery (i.e. the cemetery !) - There were 32 British graves (men fallen June 1915 - Aug. 1916) - Post Armistice moved indeed to Bard Cottage Cemetery. - No photos... It is unpleasantly surprising that are are so extremely few photos of British cemeteries with the original wooden markers. There may be (and I know there are) some of cemeteries that still exist (often postcards), but as to cemeteries that I am interested in, the ones that were moved to larger concentration cemeteries ... Apart from less than a handful, hardly anything. Yet I think there must be pics of these Lost Cemeteries in private collections, taken by British visitors who came to the Ypres battlefields immediately after the war to visit the grave of a relative, but ... where are they ? The situation is better for German cemeteries. These are often marked on German trench maps, especially in the Northern Salient, and it appears that more photos were made in the post war period. (Malte Z. has posted some of them.) And after the original wooden markers were replaced by new wooden markers (heavy crosses, in the late 1930s and even later), dozens and dozens of picture postcards were made, and many collectors have these. So if someone has a photo of a British cemetery with the original wooden markers AND that was moved later to a larger concentration cemetery, please contact me ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 8 March , 2006 Share Posted 8 March , 2006 To Aurel, The results of that ' cemetery - search' are very valuable. Could you make the data searchable and available through the internet, perhaps via the IFF ... Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 March , 2006 Share Posted 8 March , 2006 Gilbert, I have no idea ... When maybe at the end of this year the search is over - though right now I'm sure it will never be over, as there always be other information that will have to be found ) - I intend to give everything to the In Flanders Fields Museum Documentation Centre in Ypres, for anybody interested to look into. But of course accessibility through the internet would be fine. Maybe on the website www.wo1.be ? (Forum member Robert M. has already contacted me vaguely.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 9 March , 2006 Share Posted 9 March , 2006 Aurel Do you have anything on Tyne Cot ? One of my great-uncles is buried there although he was killed on 16th August 1917 somewhere near Nonne Bosschen. CWGC have been no help in finding out where he was originally buried. Just wondered if you had any further info available? Many thanks Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tony noyes Posted 9 March , 2006 Share Posted 9 March , 2006 Tony, Yes I had noticed that the names you mentioned are in the Somme area. I have no idea if anybody has ever done that for the Somme. I just thought that someone had to do it for these hundreds of Lost Cemeteries in the Ypres Salient. (Mind you : it started in a very humble way : only my own village, but then, you know how it goes ...) Aurel Aurel Sincere Greetings from times past, and I send you my very best wishes Tony Noyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 March , 2006 Share Posted 9 March , 2006 Andy, Tyne Cot Cemetery is one of my "frustrations". You know that there are almost 12,000 graves, approx. 300 of which were original buried there (behind the Crtoss of Sacrifice). That means that the rest were concentrated here from several small cemeteries on the battlefields : that is more than 11,500 graves. There is a list of 9 of these cemeteries of which one knows the remains were taken to Tyne Cot Cemetery (impossible to say if your greatuncle was one of them). But when you count the number of graves of the 9 cemeteries, the total is ... only 172. That means : more than 11,500 minus 172 = more than 11,000 from cemeteries that are not known. 95 % of the graves ...! I may have a few of them in my list, but no way to say which they are. Forum member Jan is trying to find out about as many of these men as possible. I suppose you know his thread ? (Though I am not sure one of his main objectives is to find out what cemeteries these Tyne Cot Men are from.) By the way, should any member know of a greatuncle of grandfather at Tyne Cor Cemetery originally buried at a cemetery other than one of the 9 following cemeteries, I would be interested to learn. Iberian South Cem. / Iberian Trench Cem. / Kink Corner Cem. / Levi Cottage Cem. / Oostnieuwkerke German Cem. / Staden German Cem. / Vladslo-Praatbos German Military Cem. / Waterloo Farm Cem. / Zonnebeke British Cem. 2. Aurel Tony, Best wishes to you too ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 Aurel Many thanks for your considered response. Firstly, yes I have been in contact with Jan and submitted my man for inclusion in this worthwhile project. Secondly, trying to think outside the box on this one, do you know if the position of a grave (not part of the original 300) within Tyne Cot could be influenced by where it came from? Thirdly, something that has always confused me. My g-uncle's death cert states 'Death presumed', yet CWGC state catagorically that if he has a named grave then there are some identifiable remains under the stone. Why then DP rather than KIA? Your thoughts would be appreciated. Kind Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 Andy, The position of the grave ? All I can say is that I think that if after the war graves were brought in from a certain cemetery, they were grouped, buried together. That is what I think I noticed elsewhere once or twice. Though possibly there are exceptions. I mean that maybe not all of them were buried closely together, in the same row or so. I can imagine that on a certain day at Tyne Cot Cemetery (or any other large concentration cemetery) remains came in from all over the battlefields, and that it was not really imperative (why should it ?) to bury the men who had been buried together originally, together again. But I don't think that this helps you ... What you could do is write down the names on the headstones in the same row (or adjacent rows) and try to find out, if possible, about their history (battalion, brigade, date and place of death, etc) and whether they are linked to your greatuncle. But even then it's guessing or would hardly produce useful information you can be certain of. As to "Death Presumed" ... I've never heard of that. Very odd. I really don't know what to think of that. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 Aurel Thanks again for your reply. I will be in Tyne Cot at the beginning of April and will do as you suggest with regard to some adjacent graves - knowing my luck they will all be 'Known unto God' . My man is up in the choir, do you know if this was constructed before or after the main body of the church? I think that I will repost the DP thing elsewhere. Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Hollington Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 A relative of mine is buried in Messines Ridge cmty, I contacted the CWGC and they gave me a grid reference for his original burial. This works out to be slightly (100-200m) North East of St Eloi. Do you know of any cemeteries which were in this area? I should add he was killed June 1917 (see signature). Many Thanks Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 My man is up in the choir, do you know if this was constructed before or after the main body of the church? Andy Andy, I've just had a look in the booklet A. Deseyne, Tyne Cot Passendale, 1992. (In Dutch only) Sorry, no answer to that question. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 Aurel Many, many thanks for looking anyway. Kind Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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