Guest dilmo Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 Hi, to all who have read and responded to my original post. And a special thanks to Andrew Hesketh for the link.. Medal card showed no middle name or any other personal info. (I didn't expect it to really, though I was suprised how clear it was to read!) Awarded medals: Victory British 15 Star Would the 15 star indicate to the 1914/15 star medal and not the 1914 Star? I have been doing a bit of research and found information on these medals and from reading (if I have undertood correctly) that the dates for the 1914 where awarded for service ashore in France between 5 Aug and 22 Nov 1914 when, if Jim's therory was correct George's Reg no. may indicate him enlisting Apr/May 1915 ? So it could not pssibly be this one (and I am doubting Jim's theory to be wrong! I believe he is right, with the date of births of ohter children George left behind) 1914/15 "Authorised in 1918, the 1914/15 Star was awarded to those individuals who saw service in France and Flanders from 23 November 1914 to 31 December 1915, and to those individuals who saw service in any other operational theatre from 5 August 1914 to 31 December 1915". Quote from National Archives. My other question here is, could George have served abroad? or did he recieve the Medal for 'service in another operational theatre'? Regards Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 a}Yes it refers to the 1914~15 Star,{just sloppy Clerical work on behalf of the Card Filler} b}He must have served Overseas[but not necessarily France/Flanders] to have been awarded the Star,War & Victory Medals,they weren't granted for solely Home Service{save on a few rare occasions,usually RN;& then a BWM was the only award} c} The MiC should have a date of entry to & Code/Name of a Theatre of War;eg:~1{France & Flanders};2 {Balkans};etc;A list of these appears on the Long Long Trail}}which will tell you where & when he first went over.{ie:On the Downloaded Card from the NA} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 Mandy, If you check back on the details discussed in the other thread you'll note the likelihood of George transferring to the Sherwood Foresters in the period between c.May 1915 and c. September 1915. He was certainly there by October 1915 when the 1st Garrison Battalion, to whom he was attached, moved out to Egypt, thus qualifying him for the 14/15 Star. Does the MIC not state the theatre first served in (bottom left-ish)? Your research is coming along nicely isn't it?! P.S. - I'll now go and respond to the queries on the other thread - apologies for the slowness but I've been off radar for a couple of days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilmo Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 Hello again, Wow! I can't believe all these replies..you are all so helpful Yes.. it's coming on great! It's only that I am excited about this gentleman that I am a pain! I answered the other post before I came here..this may get a bit confusing. I'll stick with this post now..leave the other post I think!. Bottom left hand corner of Medal Card reads = Theatre of War first served in (L)3 or (LB? its hard to make Date of entry therein 7/11/15 Thank you, I will check out on the site for info that Harry refers to. You have made me feel quite proud of my great grandfather..his life is building strong, thanks to all on this great site.. Kindest regards Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 20 February , 2006 Share Posted 20 February , 2006 Bottom left hand corner of Medal Card reads = Theatre of War first served in (L)3 or (LB? its hard to make Date of entry therein 7/11/15 Thank you, I will check out on the site for info that Harry refers to. You have made me feel quite proud of my great grandfather.. From the code "3" it would appear he first served in Egypt,which will help confirm his Battalion. Keep up the good work Mandy! <::Theatre Of War Codes::> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 20 February , 2006 Share Posted 20 February , 2006 Harry beat me to it but I suspected that the '3' code would be there somewhere. Mandy this absolutely confirms that he did not serve abroad with the Leicesters but went overseas with the 1st Garrison Battalion of the SF. They set off in October, so I presume arrival was 7/11/15, confirming that he was with the 'originals' and stayed with them until his accidental death. I wonder if the War Diary might offer a clue as to the circumstances of his death - not that I've got it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 20 February , 2006 Share Posted 20 February , 2006 The War Diaries are at the NA: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...&accessmethod=0 http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...&accessmethod=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilmo Posted 20 February , 2006 Share Posted 20 February , 2006 I wasn't expecting a reply so quick! This is brilliant!! Andrew, I have followed your link for the Feb 1918 - May 1919 war diaries.. now, they say they will copy 5 pages for 6.50p so I will give name and number and death date and the 4 days before, I will let you know. It will obviously be for download document as I can't wait! I may not be fortunate..but I won't know till I try!! Thanks to both of you for your help. I was thinking if George enlisted with the Leicester's early spring, then he wasn't with them long before he got transfred..mmm... Thank you again Kindesst regards Mandy P.S Wouldn't it be great to have a picture??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 20 February , 2006 Share Posted 20 February , 2006 ...........of course there's no guarantee that the War Diary will offer any enlightenment!! However it may do and, at the very least, you'll gain a flavour of what was happening in George's final days. Please let us know what you discover. Picture? I'd tried the local press (check this out with the Local Studies section of the nearest Library to where he lived) which often printed pictures and brief obituaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilmo Posted 20 February , 2006 Share Posted 20 February , 2006 Document should be emailed before 1pm tomorrow............. Picture .........I wouldn't like to push my luck too far. The Newark Houses in Leicester are due to open with their new 'Tigers' department in the early Autumn. I will be there for sure... Until tomorrow with the news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilmo Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Hi, I recieved my email from the Archive and naturally I zoomed on my all important date, and I know you would like to know..then here it is "26/06/1918 2 N C O's were despatched to O.C., E.L.C. Base Depot, Kantara for duty and with a view to their ultimately takinng up a Commision in that Corps." What does this mean? I will read the rest later... If anyone is interested in the rest then I do not mind sharing..1/06/1918 -16/08/1918 these are the dates of the 5 pages requested to the National Archives..thanks to Andrew Hesketh Kindest regards Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Mandy, Didn't George die accidentally on the 25th? NCO's are non-commissioned officers (Corporals / Sergeants etc.) OC is Officer Commanding ELC - don't know. A guess at Egyptian Labour Corps? Any pals know better? Taking up a commission implies that the NCO's are planning to become 'proper' officers, i.e. 2nd Lieutenant as a first step. You are doing a great job with this Mandy. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilmo Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Hi oops!!! yes the 25th ............ getting carried away in all the excitement. The diary date is the 25th June 1918 and Not the 26th my fault sorry!! Thanks for the translation.. there are a few gaps in the dates where it just says 'nil' and other dates have inserts as the above, some went 'training with Gas'.. and some went for 'school of instruction, Alexandra' and it appears some went home on leave for 7 days during July..pity George missed this! It gave me a strange feeling in my stomach when I read they went on training courses...for Bayonet training..and several courses, sort of makes it too real! I'm feeling a passion..if George missed this training, all sorts of things are running through my head. Anyway..I have inserted a picture on my card (left column) of Beatrice, George's wife, taken about the 1920's Thank you for your kind comments of my success.. Kindest regards Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 "It gave me a strange feeling in my stomach...." I think I speak for all of us when I say that I recognise that emotion, especially when you start getting close to a man you have a personal connection with. I'm glad that you are finding the diary of interest, but what a pity there's no reference to the accident. Presumably there's no mention over the following few days either? In virtually all war diaries private soldiers never get a mention. I don't suppose there was time to go into details when a terse note merely says '11 other ranks killed' or whatever. However (and without wishing to show any disrespect to their service), the 1st Garrison Battalion were not exactly 'front-line' troops so I had hoped that a death, especially one were somebody was presumably culpable (even if it was George himself), might have merited a little detail. Probably time to start thinking about your next step forward now. All the best, Andrew P.S. [grovel] - any chance of a copy of the war diary download?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 A Lieutenant-Colonel grovelling to a Lance-Corporal?! Must be one of those temporary blighters (as opposed to a permanent blighter of course! ) Steve. P.S. Mandy. It's the least he deserves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hayter Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Been following this fascinating thread ... as ever mind blowingly helpful. Probably detailed elsewhere (will search) but how does one go about requesting \ finding War Diaries as per the above link? Are all diaries available? I'm specifically looking at 4RWF and 203rd Cambridgeshire but I'm not sure if that is the correct level of detail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Mandy, Ignore Steve - he doesn't get out much and his brain gets addled by trying to make sense of the London Gazette. Steve, I'll grovel to anyone when they've got something I want! How are you getting on with the 1918 MM's by the way you wonderful, fascinating chap you? Langton, Good question actually. Firstly, go to the relevant part of the NA website (i.e. here! http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp for general info. Then, specifically for diaries, here > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp to carry out your search request - this bits all free so don't panic. Type in some suitable key words such as '4 Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers' and a suitable date range i.e 1914 to 1918. In the series code type in WO 95 (ensuring the space between WO and 95 - this is the catalogue reference for all war diaries). If you are lazy just click here > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...=19&image1.y=10 You've got me on the 203rd Cambridgeshire's though. Who were they? Anyway, now click on the diary you are interested in for details. Click on 'request this' and away you go. The cost is £6.50 for 5 pages. The thing is you don't know what you'll get - it depends on how detailed the diary is. Mandy has one that covers about ten weeks though obviously in little detail. I've recently been reading one that covers only a couple of days because of the attached notes, diagrams etc. Good luck if you go for it. All the best, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hayter Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Thanks Andrew ... that helps a lot, will plough through the archives! 203rd Field Coy RE - attached to 35th Div I believe. Do I search the 35ths or would the 203rd have their own War Diary? In fact he didn't go overseas with them so would they only start a diary once in the theatre? This is really starting to turn my brain to jelly .. chap seems to keep changing Div, Coy etc left right and centre. Now realise I need 237rd Field Coy attached to 41st! Then he transfers to 4\RWF ... I'm glad he survived the war but it might have been easier if he'd not!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 In fact he didn't go overseas with them so would they only start a diary once in the theatre? I feel your frustration! To answer your question: yes. Diaries began only on active service abroad. It's a source of frustration to myself and several other forum members researching the Easter Rising that Ireland was not regarded as 'abroad' (which, to be fair, technically it wasn't in 1916). All of the diaries I've seen begin on the day of embarkation to wherever and whatever.... Thanks for clearing up the 203rd bit. 273 RE are here: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog....x=0&image1.y=0 and 203... http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...&accessmethod=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Andrew, Hardly started mate. Been at Colindale, the British Library and the NA this week (Does that class as getting out much?) Maybe tomorrow? Langton, Have you found this website on your travels? http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Regiments/cambregt203.html Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Hayter Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Andrew .... very kind of you, thanks ... didn't find it myself so grateful for your help! Will check dates he served and see about getting a copy. Stebie ... yes thanks, I think I've tried every combination of 203, cambridgeshire and RE possible and that's turned up a couple of times! Chap who wrote it probably has everything I'm posting about but I'm enoying the research. Frustrating ... but a heck of a lot easier with the internet at our disposal I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilmo Posted 24 February , 2006 Share Posted 24 February , 2006 Hi all, (civilian) Dilmo here, Not been here for a couple of days, busy at university..Anyway..seems I have missed a few postings. Andrew, there is no need..really! You don't need to grovil. Just let me know where to post the diaries..can I send an attachment through this site? Didn't want to try it without making sure first.. And I did say I was willing to share.. If it wasn't for you guy's then I wouldn't have known about them..so let me know. I'm so glad others have had benifits from this..that's really great! And yes..that is the question..where do I go from here? I have a few Ideas and also need to organise the information collected, and gain more insight to regiment, uniform etc.. I also need to contact family memeber to get a copy of Beatrice (wife) and the four children. It appears the last girl to be born was in 1918 and if memory serves me right she was born August time.. Plus visit the museum (newark Houses) in Leicester when it opens early autumn with its new section for War memorabilia Any other suggestions????? Kindest regards Mandy P.S don't know how to change my description..in left side panel!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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