Archeology of dud shells

[RodB]

I've been reading about various archeological digs that throw light on battles, living conditions and equipment of WWI soldiers. But I haven't found anything that treats unexploded shells as anything other than a nuisance or novelty. Strange, seeing WWI got to be called an artillery war, and these duds represent a priceless record of who fired what at who, how, when, where etc. Has any serious work been done on these shells when they are recovered ? Direction, ballistics, range, calibre, type, statistical analysis...

[withcall]

None that I've ever read. My impression, and it's completely unscientific, is that large calibre high explosive shells were more prone to malfunction than lighter stuff. That's purely based on what I've seen on the ground over fifteen years walking about on the Western Front. I was once told that over ten million 18lb shells were fired in France and Belgium, and although the empty 'middle bit' of those, i.e. the steel cylinder which held the shrapnel, seem to turn up in numbers still, I can't recall finding a proportionately great number of them still complete with nose-cone (fuze) Someone will no doubt write in with completely the opposite impression, but it will all still depend on anecdotal evidence, I guess. I was also told that shell manufacture was outsourced in a big way, and all kinds of engineering firms both here and in the USA were re-tooled to make shells, and the quality control was often very wayward. Would anyone like to offer a hefty research grant so that this issue can be investigated properly? I could do with a year off work!

[Max Poilu]

...I was once told that over ten million 18lb shells were fired in France and Belgium...

Whoever told you was slightly out! The British used an average of 65,000 18 pounder shells for every day of the war - approximately 100 million in total. That's just 18 pdrs of all types - mainly Shrapnel and HE. Around 20 - 30% failed to detonate - various reasons but mainly the fuzes were faulty or were not armed correctly by the gunners. This stastic of failure should roughly hold true for most calibres as the fuzes were similar/same in construction or design regardless of calibre.

The Demineurs of France (the EOD who deal with all the excavated munitions) will more than likely have recorded all such finds - not sure how scientifically though...

As always the subject of relics and EOD on the Western Front is one of the most discussed on the forum through the years - a search for "relics" or "demineurs" or "ordnance" or "shell" will bring up lots of useful info and links.

[Marty]

I have been to the western front a few times and have come across fired shells either in fields or alongside the road. It is my understanding that the shells work their way to the surface through frost heaves, erosion, etc. making any real scientific review of their trajectory, etc. almost impossible since they have moved from the original landing spot.

Another item would be that each shell, though rusty, has an intact fuze andcould detonate if handled wrong. It seems the inner workings of most are almost the same as when manufactured despite the time since they were used and few people alive today would want to toy with them.

I do believe that each find is plotted on a general index of finds and this includes the type if known, condition, etc. so there is a record at least of where they were found.

Marty

[truthergw]

I've been reading about various archeological digs that throw light on battles, living conditions and equipment of WWI soldiers. But I haven't found anything that treats unexploded shells as anything other than a nuisance or novelty. Strange, seeing WWI got to be called an artillery war, and these duds represent a priceless record of who fired what at who, how, when, where etc. Has any serious work been done on these shells when they are recovered ? Direction, ballistics, range, calibre, type, statistical analysis...

You could contact Frans of De Diggers or his ' commercial representative' here in UK, Tafski. Sorry Bruce

They seem to dig up an inordinate amount of Ordinance.

[Rob Gray]

Shells of all shapes and sizes turn up on the Western Front, in the Somme area most are unearthed through ploughing or building works.

The farmers simply stack them up at the side of the field and wait for the Demineurs to take them away.

I took this photo a last week of 3 shells dumped in a pile of general rubbish - note that the copper driving bands are all missing - probably hacked off by locals..??

Rob.

[RodB]

Thanks for the photo Rob. What I find frustrating is the lack of context for such shells - if we just knew what country / calibre / filling together with the precise location, we would have historical data to work with. Without that, all these shells are just scrap metal with no meaning.

I'm thinking along the lines of - what perecentage of duds were British / German / Frence - do we have any facts ? Do we have any evidence to support assertions of 30% British duds on the Somme ? Where exactly are shell finds concentrated ? Even a very small percentage of accurate identifications woould be of great use I believe - but then I realise somebody with loads of spare time would have to do it, and I can't because I live in Oz.

[Marty]

Rodb, It would probably be impossible to tell the actual percentage of duds for each country given the magnitude of shells fired as well as the tens of thousands that have been already gathered and destroyed.

So far the only shells I could identify from among the duds were British but then I was walking areas where the Germans occupied and the British shelled. The areas where the Germans shelled might reveal additional details but I am unaware of any work done on this aspect.

Marty

[Captain Dave]

I think it would be pretty unreliable when trying to piece together any information for several reasons. It has already been alluded to that shells move in the earth over time. In addition to this, when they hit the ground (and fail to detonate), they travel a distance from their entry point in the earth This can be up or down, sideways etc, depending on the ground make up and what else is in the ground. Shells can also riccochet if they hit at the wrong trajectory, sometimes ending up a good distance from their intended landing area.

Also, unless manufacturing details are available (or more to the point, legible on the shells), in order to work out the percentage of unexploded shells from a particular factory/manufacturing run, your wasting your time trying to work out when shells were not doing their job.

As also mentioned, you need to know how many shells were fired in any particular area, over any particular time.

Finaly, given the fact that the Western Front was a relativly small, hotly contested area, for a substantial period of time, the munitions are well mixed up in the earth with no real way of identifying age, manufacturer or original intended landing spot.

It's a nice idea, and I can see the interest this would generate, but I think it's like herding cats.

[Rob Gray]

There is an important safety consideration here - any further examination of these lethal objects would require them to be handled by others - and that's simply not worth the risk.

Rob.

[PhilB]

I`m reminded of the work done on the battlefield of Little Big Horn, where as many spent rounds as possible were located. The groove marks indicated which gun had fired them and much could be worked out as to how the fight developed. Can the grooves on a drive band be tied to a particular gun? I suppose so. Phil B

PS That sounds an exciting hobby - going round with a chisel and hammer removing drive bands from big duds!

[RodB]

I`m reminded of the work done on the battlefield of Little Big Horn, where as many spent rounds as possible were located. The groove marks indicated which gun had fired them and much could be worked out as to how the fight developed. Can the grooves on a drive band be tied to a particular gun? I suppose so. Phil B

PS That sounds an exciting hobby - going round with a chisel and hammer removing drive bands from big duds!

Photographic evidence seems to indicate that either French and Belgian farmers have become expert at removing drive bands without blowing themselves up - the return on the labour must be pretty good; or is there a class of lunatics that frequent the droppoff spots to get the bands before the authorities arrive ?

[Jack Sheldon]

Never mind the farmers. The Germans were so short of raw materials and non-ferrous metals, especially copper and brass, that they made shell cases out of steel and directed that driving bands from British duds were to be recovered and backloaded whenever possible. Herewith a contemporary photo from Thiepval showing a 380 mm dud with its band already removed.

Jack

[truthergw]

......................

PS That sounds an exciting hobby - going round with a chisel and hammer removing drive bands from big duds!

For many years after WW2, the silence of the cold,clear, desert nights in North Africa were enlivened by the distant boom of a failed attempt at archaeological investigation of spent artillery.

[Max Poilu]

RodB said:

Thanks for the photo Rob. What I find frustrating is the lack of context for such shells - if we just knew what country / calibre / filling together with the precise location, we would have historical data to work with. Without that, all these shells are just scrap metal with no meaning.

I'm thinking along the lines of - what perecentage of duds were British / German / Frence - do we have any facts ? Do we have any evidence to support assertions of 30% British duds on the Somme ? Where exactly are shell finds concentrated ? Even a very small percentage of accurate identifications would be of great use I believe - but then I realise somebody with loads of spare time would have to do it, and I can't because I live in Oz.

Rod, you can do some from Oz - I am not sure of the level of detail you are looking for but there is research and info out there - admittedly it is not easy to find (!) but it is there. Much of it may be classified or conducted piecemeal by individuals in F&F though. Try contacting the people as already suggested by myself and others - In France the Demineurs organisation, in Belgium the Diggers but also the official Belgian demineurs - DOVO. Within this very forum there are hundreds of pages of discussion on the detrius of war - have a search on this forum using words as suggested above: 'Demineurs', 'DOVO', 'shrapnel', 'relics', 'ordnance'. Here is one interesting topic for example:

 

(Again, again, again it's another valuable topic destroyed by photos 'lost' in the forum re-orginisation )

On the book front a highly recommended read is Donovan Webster's 'Aftermath'. Again, plenty of times this has cropped up on the forum. It is not a scientific study but simply a fascinating look at the subject.

Much of what is written may be anecdotal but it does not make it any less valid. If ever you needed to know about the concentration of shells the statistic cited by the Deminage that in parts of the Zone Rouge over 1000 shells fell per sq metre says much.

Some links follow to help:

http://www.aftermathpictures.com/

Unfortunately Nils Fabiansson' comprehensive site on the 'Archaeology of the Western Front' (linked from below) seems to be down :

http://www.chez.com/hamel1418/relics.html

Coming back to the subject of drive bands, I have my grave doubts that there is a gang of 'copper collectors' scavanging the piles awaiting deminage - these bands have very little value and I must say over many years I have never seen collections of driving bands for sale at French Bourse or otherwise. Perhaps a handful in the last 10 years. However, after shrapnel balls, small pieces of driving band are the second most common object to be found in the fields as 'virgin' finds. In addition, of the hundreds of shells I have seen in the old fields a large percentage have no band before anyone goes near them. Whether this is a consequence of geological or enviromental effect causing seperation or something that happened in 14-18 I do not know! Obviously we are mainly talking about failed shells or fired shrapenel cases not HE shells.

[RodB]

Thanks Giles Jack and others for your thoughtful replies. Driving bands replies seem to raise the question : Were the Germans achieving fairly high recovery rates for dud gun shells (i.e. with flat trajectory) ? I would assume that dud howitzer rounds would have penetrated the ground and hence not been available for recovery ? From the article Giles linked to it seems copper in nosecones would have been valuable to Germany too, but would it have been too dangerous to remove them ? All photos I see show nosecones intact (and those at Verdun also with drivebands intact, but I assume those would be German duds in French positions ?).

[Moonraker]

"War historian David O'Keefe and pals look for shrapnel in Passchendaele, and it all feels a bit distasteful," says the Sunday Times "Culture" supplement of "Buried War", to be screened on Wednesday:
 

details here

 

Moonraker

[healdav]

On 20/02/2006 at 12:54, RodB said:

Photographic evidence seems to indicate that either French and Belgian farmers have become expert at removing drive bands without blowing themselves up - the return on the labour must be pretty good; or is there a class of lunatics that frequent the droppoff spots to get the bands before the authorities arrive ?

There are a fair number of lunatics who take the entire shell before the démineurs can collec them. Most farmers now put UXB they find somewhere behind a barn and phone the démineurs to come and collect them the next time they are on their rounds.