armourersergeant Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 I have in mind a few books that advance the donkeys theory, can anyone see any additions I could add to it. The Donkeys by Clarke. British Butcher and Bunglers by Laffin. Lloyd-George's two volume memoirs The Real War, 1914-1918 by Liddell Hart Haig's Command by Denis Winter History of the First World War by Liddell Hart regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 Arm, I think you could add Prior and Wilson's books (the two that I have read): Command on the Western Front Passchendaele: the Untold Story Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 But why would you want to, Arm? Light blue touchpaper and sit back....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 I have in mind a few books that advance the donkeys theory, can anyone see any additions I could add to it. The Donkeys by Clarke. British Butcher and Bunglers by Laffin. Lloyd-George's two volume memoirs The Real War, 1914-1918 by Liddell Hart Haig's Command by Denis Winter History of the First World War by Liddell Hart regards Arm " The Great War Generals", Robin Neillands. He tries to disprove the donkeys theory but , in my view, fails. The phrase ' damned with faint praise ' springs to mind. Are you starting an anti-revisionist revival? It might be fun to start looking for new evidence of the culpability of Haig et al. Silly me! What would we want evidence for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
withcall Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 I think the anti-revisionist-movement (ARM..?) is a long way off. It will take a generation for the current orthodoxy to run its course. Send me a psychic text message to the other place in thirty years and let me know. At the moment I feel that the 'donkey' supporters are seen as the heretics and are steadily being identified, rounded up and burned at the stake. (waiting for the midnight visit..) Withcall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 I think the anti-revisionist-movement (ARM..?) is a long way off. It will take a generation for the current orthodoxy to run its course. Send me a psychic text message to the other place in thirty years and let me know. At the moment I feel that the 'donkey' supporters are seen as the heretics and are steadily being identified, rounded up and burned at the stake. (waiting for the midnight visit..) Withcall mmmm...... missed one eh? Oi! You there! Start chopping firewood! Where did I put my scary hood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 You know, you can't have history without contraversy or orthodoxy ... it can't be done. I, for one, don't subscribe to the "Donkeys" theory except when talking about Generals I don't like. Not that my opinion amounts to a "hill of beans" but, there are certain schools of historical figures I am inclined to believe were incompetent or just bad ... Now much of this all depends on how wide a brush you use to paint History. What do you have to cover and in how long? The finer the detail the more likely we are to have complex understanding of the figures involved. The more we know, the more blatant labels don't work .. that's why we have names ... So, no stake and hood ... Look at CNN today .... (American version) there's a story where the 10 Worst blunders of the American Presidency are listed by some group of "historians" ... in Kansas or somewhere where school revolves around pigskin ... James Buchannon is listed as worst because of his inability to avert the Civil War ... Historical Weirdness ...Donkeys, Misunderstood Men on a Mission, Slow Learners or Doing the Best with what they had when they had it .... they're just people ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 Years ago the pendulum was on "donkeys", now it is in "fine commanders", and the tide may yet turn again and again: as always, the historical truth may lie... somewhere in the middle? Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 mmmm...... missed one eh? Oi! You there! Start chopping firewood! Where did I put my scary hood? Watch the scary hood, old boy......ASBOs abound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 Watch the scary hood, old boy......ASBOs abound. ASBOs eh? bloody anti-anti-revisionists....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoch beard Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 Soldier's died in the great war part 1 to part 80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 That last reply could be added to your list, Arm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 19 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2006 But why would you want to, Arm? Light blue touchpaper and sit back....... When putting a list together of books to read I realsied that I was very biased to the non donkey fraternity! Just rying to address the balance! After all if LG is on your side then your on the wrong side! Thanks Pals for the additions. Enoch great reply and very apt, if a little simplistic. Andy couldn't agree more they were men doing the best they could, not always effective, but they too served. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
withcall Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 Try 'The Psychology of Military Incompetence' (come off the fence...!) by Norman Dixon. Not exclusively Great War, but a couple of impassioned chapters. Also, 'Cannon Fodder' by A. Stuart Dolden (what would he know, he was only there...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodB Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Gregor Dallas "1918" proposes (unconvincingly) that Pershing was a donkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Gregor Dallas "1918" proposes (unconvincingly) that Pershing was a donkey. Gregor Dallas proves the theroy that Donkeys are not limited to the battle field. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmac Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 How about adding... The Official History of the War: Military Operations, France & Belgium 1915, 1916 (two volumes) and 1917 (three volumes) Ooops, slaps wrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 27 February , 2006 Share Posted 27 February , 2006 Actually, this string has finally hit me ... Most of my life I lived the Lost Cause Dream ... I went so far as to go to the official Lost Cause College ... if I ever were to have a tatoo on my butt, it would say "Longstreet was a Republican" ... When I read the Lee Revisionists not only did I sputter in anger but refused to read any of that "school" till the Revisionists of the Revisionists made their debut. When it matters enough to become Orthodoxy ... I mean part of the foundation one builds one's picture of the world, upon ... it's time to examine how much is emotion and/or childhood myth or MGM history ... I had a long discussion this Sunday who honestly believed the US won the WWII and everyone else was a minor player ... (that's MGM History) Well, part of me wants to believe in DH ... it's like WW "Our Boys died for something that vastly transcends the outcome of the war" ... I want to think it was worth it ... and a good man led us ... and we really were fighting for the Right (etc. etc. etc.) ... But, you know, we grow up ... and we see things a little more clearly in that there are NO clear answers. (well, one ... er two, but that's for a different Forum) I am in the midst of Kitchener's War (so far a good book!) and it seems he knew his shortcomings and proceeded on ... so we're back to "blaming" Asquith who is a guy I want to like if for no other reason but he was stabbed by DLG ... So ... we have all this emotional Good Guy / Bad Guy baggage we bring to history ... and it all comes down to ... rooting for Hector, doesn't it. (but I hated Achilles before it was Brad pit in a leather skirt)- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetop Posted 8 March , 2006 Share Posted 8 March , 2006 I am in the midst of Kitchener's War (so far a good book!) and it seems he knew his shortcomings and proceeded on ... so we're back to "blaming" Asquith who is a guy I want to like if for no other reason but he was stabbed by DLG ... It interests me to wonder how well the politicians spun WW1 and put the blame on the Generals when it was a politician who declared war in the first place? Can we really believe that the Generals received a fair press when the slippery individuals who resided in Westminster were at home and shifting bame onto anyone not present and able to defend themselves when such "artistry" was just beginning with the development of the media? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 9 March , 2006 Share Posted 9 March , 2006 Arm How about Winter's other book 'Death's Men' Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherree Posted 9 March , 2006 Share Posted 9 March , 2006 What is this Donkey theory? Could someone please give me a concise run down on it. I will google it and see what I come up with, until then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 9 March , 2006 Share Posted 9 March , 2006 Sherree That the (brave) Lions (i.e. ordinary soldiers) were commanded by a load of Donkeys (who did not know their A$%£ from their elbows). Is that concise enough ? Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherree Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 Yes, thankyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 Yes, thankyou. Any of the books listed in the first post will give you a version of the theory. The first on the list gives the topic its title. If you wish to see the theory being debated, make a post saying " Haig was good" or " Haig was bad". Stand well back and borrow some flame-retardant underwear from a racing driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 10 March , 2006 Share Posted 10 March , 2006 One more to add ... Kitchener's War ... Cassar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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