Guest paddy Posted 11 September , 2003 Share Posted 11 September , 2003 Does anyone have details on which Artillery was firing short during the battle of the menin road, 20/09/17. Around Black Watch corner. Is there a connection with Tubb VC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 11 September , 2003 Share Posted 11 September , 2003 If you mean the advance by the 8th Bn AIF which was the Right flanking Bn of the 1st Aust Div. I did read on pages 776/777 of Bean's History and or in the 8th Bn history pages 159/160 of the short shooting by what is mentioned as the "Britsh barrage" and or Rogue gun. As you may have read that the gun doing it was looked for (bottom of page 777 Bean's) but could not be determand. As it was still doing it the next day. It was either a Gun for one of the 1st Div's Btty's or from the British 27th Div on the right. I surpose if they couldn't figure it out then, we have almost no chance to do it? But one of the Pals may known something of the 27th Div's operations on its left next to the 1st Aust Div on that day. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 11 September , 2003 Share Posted 11 September , 2003 Sorry Paddy, The right division was the 23rd British not 27th as stated by me. Part of the 10th Corps. The left Brigade was the 69th and Bns were 11th West Yorkshire, 10th Duke of Wellington's and 9th Yorkshire in the attack. Since these units were directed further south at Inverness Corse then the 8th Bn AIF at Black Watch corner. You could check to see what Artillary units were attached to the 1st Anzac Corps as I think it was an aussie battery shelling them and not British. One has only to look at the Battle of Messines to see what our and NZ and British guns could do to our troops when its dropped on them. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 12 September , 2003 Share Posted 12 September , 2003 The 23rd Div History contains no reference to the incident. It does say that "The creeping barrage of the artillery........had been faultless in covering the advance". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 12 September , 2003 Share Posted 12 September , 2003 Yes I agree. Since this Division was from another Corps its guns would have been suporting them. The Rogue must have come from the 1 Anzac Corps and must have been an aussie gun from one of FAB's since the gun was ID as a 18 Pdr. So it was from either the 1st, 2nd , 4th or 5th Aust Division as the only British guns were the Heavy Batty's. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paddy Posted 14 September , 2003 Share Posted 14 September , 2003 Steve You amaze me. Its not that this is your only forum either. OK, back to basic research. I should not have tried short cuts. Am interested in a 7th Bn rellie killed at Blackwatch, as was Tubb VC [not 100% certain] by short shells. Tubb sent messages to Brigade HQ, similar messages were received 'all day' but as you confirmed, shelling persisted. Am slowly extracting details from 7th Bn diary and unofficial history [dean & gutteridge?]. Bean seemed to think [apologies for 'presumption'] that friendly fire was inevitable but acceptable. Thanks to greenwoodman for the assistance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 14 September , 2003 Share Posted 14 September , 2003 Hi Paddy I do not have any info. to help you but the following was interesting. Bean seemed to think [apologies for 'presumption'] that friendly fire was inevitable but acceptable I think friendly fire was inevitable, as it is today, we Brits lost more to friendly fire in Iraq then to enemy fire. As for acceptable, well its never acceptable but some times it could be helpful, as it was in the case of the 6th K.S.L.I. on the 16th August 1917. The Germans counter-attacked, before hand they had crept up close to 20th Div.'s line, the K.S.L.I. sent map refs. back to Brigade H.Q. but part of map ref. was part of their own line. British shelling may have hit some of the K.S.L.I. lads but there was no sign of any Germans on their front when it stopped. The two battalions on K.S.L.I.'s left were not so lucky and were driven back about 200 yards. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 15 September , 2003 Share Posted 15 September , 2003 Yes Paddy, My reading of this action was that the 1st and 2nd Aust Divisions attacked side by side for the first time. The 1 Anzac Corps artillary plan may still be at the AWM as well and other doc's from this battle. But I do feel shaw that it was a gun from one of our batteries. Possible from the first div's own guns. I notice in Bean that some times when he knows the answer to the question but does not want to give it as it may cause problems to some one he will hide it so you have to look for it. When he mentions the gun and British barrage he then points you to the bottom of the page. Then you find the answer if you read it and know what units made up the formations he is refering to. My reading of this action clearly points to one of our guns which could not be determaned at that time. It appears most of the 2nd Bde was effected by this short shooting as the 8Bn history writes some thing on it. I have not read the 7Bn history as yet (have you got a copy?) so can not confirm only from the Bean's. Good luck S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paddy Posted 15 September , 2003 Share Posted 15 September , 2003 Steve. I got photocopies of Dean & Gutteridges 7BN History from Melb Library. Gave them to a brit I just met at Wipers. He was also tracing a rellie who went to Aus, joined the 7th, but didn't get home. You woulda thought the bloke had won Tattslotto! Contact is patgavan@optushome.com.au if you want a copy. When the hell would you get time to read it anyway? You must sit at the PC all day. But! to business at hand. P208 of "Rough as Bags" 6 Bn History says "... there were a number of casualties caused by the shells from the Australian barrage falling short. A few artillery batteries continued to fire about 500 yards short of the main barrage for almost an hour." So it is mentioned by 6 7 & 8 Bns at least. I'm not real organised but I have extracts [somewhere] where the "daily Diary" records messages to 7bn of short firing ALMOST THROUGHOUT THE 20th, and I think, even into the 21st. There is a copy of Tubbs hand written message in the AWM. The OIC 7Bn's Battle Summary says Barrage was excellent But...(mentions short firing), He also sez medical evacuation resources were inadequate. [my other hobby horse ] Pp 745 746 of OH does document barrage plan, but too complicated for me. Am getting copies of Artillery Maps soon , so that may help. ooRoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paddy Posted 15 September , 2003 Share Posted 15 September , 2003 Steve Just had a re-read of postings, your comment on Messines short firing struck a chord. Recently a Belgian historian I met commented on the large number of Aust Tunnellers whose graves she just saw all kia on "that day". She "assumed" a premature detonation, I had no answer. Could you give me a quick rundown? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 15 September , 2003 Share Posted 15 September , 2003 Paddy, Not right now but I 'll have a look. I beleive they started the battle by exploding a large number of mines. These had to be dug by Tun Coy's and our boys would have got a guernsy. I think that some (two or three) didn't go off and are still a problem for the Belguims. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paddy Posted 16 September , 2003 Share Posted 16 September , 2003 Steve. Don't bother thanks. I was just being lazy. Am in the middle of a major project rite now, and will get onto Messines later. Thanks for the offer though! ooRoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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