2 Lt Morden Maxwell Mowat

[Carr6]

Hello There!

I am searching for any record of My Great Uncle 2Lt Morden Maxwell Mowat, who served with the RFC for only 5 months, until his death.

This is what I have so far, so I don't waste anyone's time.

Morden’s story starts in New Westminster B.C. He was born on 06 Dec 1891. Morden attended the Curtis School, in Long Branch Ontario. This is where he earned his flying certificate. On 11 Nov 1915 (ironic I know), he was given certificate number 2064. In January of 1816 he joined the 23 Squadron RFC, and went with them to France on 16 Mar 1916. He transferred to 11 Squadron on 24 April 1916 and reported to Captain Champion de Crespigny.

It was here with 11 Squadron that he met with his demise. He was involved in a battle with Max Immelmann, and was shot down. He was still alive when the German's found his plane wreck, but died soon after from his wounds. He was buried just behind the German front line trenches. The Germans gave him a simple, officer-like funeral, with all honors, and left him where he lies today.

I am looking for any documentation, or paper trail, or photos, to confirm his service, or any of these events. I do have the book "Under The Guns of the German Aces" on order from my local library, as it is no long available in print.

5301 Bristol Scout C 11 Squadron 2/Lt. Morden Maxwell Mowat From The Aerodrome website.

I would also like to know if this medal card belonged to him. As I live in Canada I do not have access to any British records.

Thank you In Advance;

Cheers

Carrie

[ian turner]

Carrie,

I presume you have looked at the CWGC casualty site? It lists some of his details, and info of where buried, age, next of kin, etc.

Officers Died gives the info that he died of wounds and was a POW, which looks to confirm your own history.

Yes, that looks like his medal index card, but it seems a mistake to mention RAF, when it had not been founded at the time of his death.

Ian

[Carr6]

Carrie,

I presume you have looked at the CWGC casualty site? It lists some of his details, and info of where buried, age, next of kin, etc.

Officers Died gives the info that he died of wounds and was a POW, which looks to confirm your own history.

Yes, that looks like his medal index card, but it seems a mistake to mention RAF, when it had not been founded at the time of his death.

Ian

Yes Ian thank you I have checked the War Graves Commission and have the informatio from there. I have a friend who is going over the Europe to take some photos of the grave site for me. So that will be a help, and I hope that the library has that book soon.

Is there anyway to tell how long, or where he was a POW before he died? I would imagine that he was in a hospital. Are there any records anywhere that would tell me that information?

That is why I asked about the medal card, as it said RAF and not RFC. Thanks for getting back to me.

Cheers

Carrie

[ian turner]

Carrie,

From what you say about where he was buried it does not sound as if he lasted too long.

Maybe wait for 'Dolphin' to answer, as he has a great fund of RFC info.

Ian

[Carr6]

Carrie,

From what you say about where he was buried it does not sound as if he lasted too long.

Maybe wait for 'Dolphin' to answer, as he has a great fund of RFC info.

Ian

Thanks again Ian!

Well as posted earlier the account that I have, was that he died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. So I guess in a way he was a POW, but just never lived long enough to be formally recognized. I do have the a copy of a letter written to Morden's parents by a man he was billeted with.

His name was G.K. Tyler. I can only assume that he was British. Maybe someone here knows who he is?

Here is a little blurb from that letter:

The facts that we have are that he went across the lines and did not get back. The Germans reported bringing him down. There is good reason to hope that he is all right. The Germans report did not say that he was killed, as it has in a number of other cases.

So that's why I asked if there are records of POW's because if he died the same day he was shot down, why wouldn't there be record of it in this letter? If he died on the way to the hospital, would that not have been recorded along with him being shot down?

Ok Im sorry I am babbling again and I do tend to do that a lot. I will shush now and wait for "Dolphin"!

Cheers

Carrie

[Kath]

Carrie.

There's a ref. to MOWAT, 2/Lieut M in the NA. May be yours.

Type MOWAT in Search the Catalogue & look under WO

He's 3rd from bottom 1st page.

Piece details: WO 374/49388

1915-1920

Kath.

( WO - Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies

Division within WO Armed forces service records

WO 374 War Office: Officers' Services, First World War, personal files (alphabetical)

[Carr6]

Carrie.

There's a ref. to MOWAT, 2/Lieut M in the NA. May be yours.

Type MOWAT in Search the Catalogue & look under WO

He's 3rd from bottom 1st page.

Piece details: WO 374/49388

1915-1920

Kath.

( WO - Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies

Division within WO Armed forces service records

WO 374 War Office: Officers' Services, First World War, personal files (alphabetical)

Thank you Kath I will be sure to order that and see what it tells me!

[Dolphin]

Carrie

The authoritative Sharks Among Minnows by Norman Franks says that 2Lt Mowat was attacking two German LVG two-seaters, and was in turn being shelled by German anti-aircraft fire, when Ltn Max Immelmann of KeK Douai saw the action from a distance. Immelmann attacked Mowat's Bristol Scout from the rear and fatally wounded the pilot. 2Lt Mowat died as German soldiers removed him from the wreck of his aeroplane.

The account of 2Lt Mowat's end in Under the Guns of the German Aces (which includes as photograph of the man) is only very slightly different, in that it says that he was barely alive when German troops reached him, and died within minutes. So I think that you are right in saying that while he was in German hands when he died, he hadn't been formally processed as a PoW.

One of the German two-seater crews claimed to have shot down the Bristol Scout, but as 2Lt Mowat's wounds were from bullets fired behind him, the victory was credited to Ltn Immelmann as his 15th.

I hope this is useful.

Gareth

[Dolphin]

His name was G.K. Tyler. I can only assume that he was British. Maybe someone here knows who he is?

Carrie

'G K Tyler' was probably the FE 2b pilot 'Lt Tyler' of No 11 Sqn RFC who, together with his observer Lt J A Turnbull, and Lt E D Hicks and AMI [later Captain] Frederick Libby in another FE 2b, was credited with shooting down an enemy twin-engined aeroplane (an AGO C-type) on 15 July 1916. US-born Capt F Libby was eventually credited with 14 victories.

Unfortunately, that's all I can find on Lt Tyler, other than noting that he's not listed in Airmen Died, so he almost certainly survived the War.

Best wishes

Gareth

[GrandsonMichael]

Fantastic information Gareth!

There is one thing that puzzles me.

The date of entry into a Theatre of War on the Medal Index Card is November 1915, in Belgium. That seems to be contradictory with the information that Lt. Mowat went to France on 16 March 1916…

Yes, that looks like his medal index card, but it seems a mistake to mention RAF, when it had not been founded at the time of his death.

Ian

Even though he died in 1916, wouldn’t he have been eligible for the Victory & British War Medals? It is even stranger that R.A.F. is mentioned, if he entered the theatre of war in 1915. It looks as though this M.I.C. was made later, after the R.A.F. was constituted. Could this be an example of a 'split Medal Index Card'?

Cheers,

Michael

[Carr6]

Fantastic information Gareth!

There is one thing that puzzles me.

The date of entry into a Theatre of War on the Medal Index Card is November 1915, in Belgium. That seems to be contradictory with the information that Lt. Mowat went to France on 16 March 1916…

Even though he died in 1916, wouldn’t he have been eligible for the Victory & British War Medals? It is even stranger that R.A.F. is mentioned, if he entered the theatre of war in 1915. It looks as though this M.I.C. was made later, after the R.A.F. was constituted. Could this be an example of a 'split Medal Index Card'?

Cheers,

Michael

WOW Thanks everyone.

I am a bit confused Dolphin you said " in another FE 2b" What is an FE 2b? I appreciate you taking the time to look up Mr Tyler. As I have searched high and low for him and have found nothing.

Good Morning Michael, you could have just emailed all that to me! And if I had known you had all that information on the air force as well I would have just asked! *smiles*

So have we come to a decision on the medal card? It seems to me that most of you have agreed that it's not his. And what does "Split Index Medal Card" mean?

Thank you all again

Cheers

Carrie

[GrandsonMichael]

Good Morning Michael, you could have just emailed all that to me! tongue.gif And if I had known you had all that information on the air force as well I would have just asked! *smiles*

Ah....I thought contacting you here would add an extra dimension to our relationship......

Erm, I don't have all that information about the R.A.F. I'll leave that to the exellent experts here.

It happens sometimes that there are two M.I.C.'s for one and the same person. Little oops while filling in the name, or whatever. My Grandfather has two of them. They blundered whilst filling in his first names, but someone noticed and cross referenced them. On the M.I.C.'s that is. You would never find both of him if you didn't know his first names. On one of them his service number for the Machine Gun Corps is wrong, etc.

So, I'm actually saying that the date and place of entry could for instance be wrong on the M.I.C. you posted, and that there could be another one with the other medals. Perhaps under Mowatt, but I checked that, as undoubtedly did you. Also, it is, as Ian pointed out, really strange that they filled in R.A.F. This all points (possibly) to a series of oopses.

His name is correct, he died of wounds.....only the rest is nonsense.

Cheers,

Michael

[ian turner]

Carrie,

An FE2b is a two seat bi-plane with a 'pusher' type propellor (situated behind the cockpit body, rather than at the front). It gave the gunner at the front an unhindered field of fire. But they were quickly outdated by more agile/powerful front-engined aircraft of the more usual type.

I think the MIC is indeed for your man, everything else matches and there cannot have been too many MM Mowats as 2LT who died of wounds. I am sure he qualified for a BWM and VM, its just not readily shown on this card, which may be a late replacement card perhaps.

Ian

[Dolphin]

What is an FE 2b?

Carrie

The FE 2b (see below) was a common British two-seat fighter with a 'pusher' configuration, ie the engine was behind the crew. The pilot sat in the rear compartment, and the observer/gunner in the front, from which place he had a clear field of fire to the front and side with his Lewis gun; by standing up, he could fire another Lewis over the upper wing to the rear. The FEs were introduced in late 1915, and did much to enable the Allies to gain aerial supremacy for much of 1916. The FE 2b, and its slightly improved cousin, the FE 2d, remained in front line service to too long, and they were outclassed when replaced in mid-1917. The type then went on to be used with success as a night bomber in 1918.

In July 1916, No 11 Sqn RFC had 8 FE 2bs, 4 Vickers Fighters, 3 Bristol Scouts and 3 Nieuport Scouts.

I hope this helps.

Gareth

[Carr6]

Carrie

The FE 2b (see below) was a common British two-seat fighter with a 'pusher' configuration, ie the engine was behind the crew. The pilot sat in the rear compartment, and the observer/gunner in the front, from which place he had a clear field of fire to the front and side with his Lewis gun; by standing up, he could fire another Lewis over the upper wing to the rear. The FEs were introduced in late 1915, and did much to enable the Allies to gain aerial supremacy for much of 1916. The FE 2b, and its slightly improved cousin, the FE 2d, remained in front line service to too long, and they were outclassed when replaced in mid-1917. The type then went on to be used with success as a night bomber in 1918.

In July 1916, No 11 Sqn RFC had 8 FE 2bs, 4 Vickers Fighters, 3 Bristol Scouts and 3 Nieuport Scouts.

I hope this helps.

Gareth

Thank you all so much. Gareth, Dolphin and of course Michael!

LOL @ new dimension to our relationship!!!

Thank you Gareth for the picture of the plane, that's really cool! It doesn't look entirely safe to me though. It must have taken great courage just to get into a plane like that. Or in my Gr Uncle Case, great stupidity, if he's anything like me, which i am slowly finding out he is!

Ok now I understand what that plane is. I am usually forced to sit on a sunday and watch Discovery channel's history of planes, or bombers, or war planes or something or other that I don't really pay attention to.

There is a listing on that other page of MIC's (Oh look at me I am using the lingo)! for a Morten Mowat, but that is listed as RFA, and i know he was not artillery. However there was an OA Mowat but he was CFA.

Anyways I am babbling again.

Dolphin I will be sure to pick up the book Sharks Among Minnows if it's still in print! It seems that is my luck that things that i want are no longer in print or available.

So Michael, that ribbon bar I have could have been Morden's or Oliver's? So now I am stumped as to who they belong to. I have the shirt bars for the BWM and the VM, but medals no to go wtih them, or any idea of which Gr Uncle recieved them. Someone really needs to make a list of all the war medal recipeints and post it on the internet somewhere. LOL Like that's gonna happen I know. But a girl can dream can't she?

I am not enough of a relative to get them from the war and decorations department in Ottawa.

So there we go again, with all this great information (which I am grateful to know) and ending in a dead end for a medal I can't get.

We need a crying emote!

On the message that Kath posted she made reference to

Type MOWAT in Search the Catalogue & look under WO

He's 3rd from bottom 1st page.

Piece details: WO 374/49388

1915-1920

What information exactly am I going to get from this page? or whatever it is?

PS Im sure the ribbon bar is upside down

Cheers

Carrie

[Stebie9173]

Carrie,

Details of promotions for officers were published in the London Gazette, the official Government Newspaper. These entries should be of interest:

London Gazette 22-12-1915

SPECIAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS.

SUPPLEMENTARY TO REGULAR UNITS OR CORPS.

ROYAL FLYING CORPS.

Military Wing.

The undermentioned to be Second Lieutenants (on probation): —

Dated 20th November, 1915.

Morden Maxwell Mowat.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

---

London Gazette 2-3-1916

SUPPLEMENTARY TO REGULAR UNITS OB COUPS.

ROYAL FLYING CORPS.

Military Wing.

The undermentioned Second Lieutenants (on probation) are confirmed in their rank: —

Morden Maxwell Mowat.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Carrie,

What is Oliver's full name?

He wouldn't be this man would he?

London Gazette 3-9-1919

AWARDED THE DISTINGUISHED SERVICE ORDER.

CANADIAN FORCE.

Maj. Oliver Mowat Maitland, Saskatchewan R., attd. Can. Engrs., 8th Corps.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

This Issue of the Gazette was known as the "Peace Gazette" and citations were not published.

Also:

London Gazette 22-1-1919

OVERSEA FORCES.

CANADA.

COMMANDS AND STAFF.

Spec. Appt.—Temp. Maj. 0. M. Maitland, Saskatchewan R., ceases to be graded for pay as a Staff Lt., 1st Cl., and ceases to be secd.

4th Jan. 1919.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

Steve.

[Carr6]

Carrie,

What is Oliver's full name?

He wouldn't be this man would he?

London Gazette 3-9-1919

AWARDED THE DISTINGUISHED SERVICE ORDER.

CANADIAN FORCE.

Maj. Oliver Mowat Maitland, Saskatchewan R., attd. Can. Engrs., 8th Corps.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

This Issue of the Gazette was known as the "Peace Gazette" and citations were not published.

Also:

London Gazette 22-1-1919

OVERSEA FORCES.

CANADA.

COMMANDS AND STAFF.

Spec. Appt.—Temp. Maj. 0. M. Maitland, Saskatchewan R., ceases to be graded for pay as a Staff Lt., 1st Cl., and ceases to be secd.

4th Jan. 1919.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

Steve.

Thanks Stebie, now I have a few more tidbits to add to Morden's story.

My Gr Uncle Oliver is Capt.Olver Alexander Mowat M.C. and I have searched him to end. He was Canadian Field Artillery. So it's not the same person.

Cheers Carrie

[SteveE]

Carrie

My Gr Uncle Oliver is Capt.Olver Alexander Mowat M.C. and I have searched him to end. He was Canadian Field Artillery. So it's not the same person.

You'll probably have this but just in case you don't here's a link to your Great Uncle Oliver's MC Citation in the London Gazette (#31359, dated 27 May 1919). Link is Here

Citation reads:

Capt. Oliver Alexander Mowat, 68th By., Can. Fd. Arty.

For conspicuous gallantry and resource on December 15th, 1918, at Kodema, when in charge of the operations, in addition to being in charge of an 18-pounder. He brought artillery fire to bear on the village at a range of 800 yards, under heavy rifle and machine gun fire, with marked success. He has previously

done good work.

Hope this helps

Regards

Steve

[SteveE]

Carrie

that ribbon bar I have could have been Morden's or Oliver's? So now I am stumped as to who they belong to. I have the shirt bars for the BWM and the VM, but medals no to go wtih them, or any idea of which Gr Uncle recieved them.

I notice from Oliver's attestation papers that he signed up January 13th 1915 with 24th Battery CFA. Do you have his service papers or know when he entered a theatre of war as it's possible that he may have qualified for a 1914-15 Star. The 'Star' isn't on the medal bar and could possibly, by a process of elimination, point to it being Morden's.

Need to confirm Oliver's date of entry into a theatre of war to prove this though.

Hope this helps

Steve

[SteveE]

Carrie

On the message that Kath posted she made reference to

Type MOWAT in Search the Catalogue & look under WO

He's 3rd from bottom 1st page.

Piece details: WO 374/49388

1915-1920

What information exactly am I going to get from this page? or whatever it is?

WO374 (and WO339) are National Archive references that relate to Officer's Service Files. The piece (WO374/49388) that Kath is referring to relates to the Officer's File for a 2/Lieut M. Mowat who may, or may not, be your man as there is another possible officer (Murdo Mowat) that it could relate to.

There is also another piece WO339/80930 for a Mowat, M. who could again be a possible.

It is quite possible that neither file is for your man but until you (or someone on your behalf) can have a look you'll not know for sure.

Sorry to be the bearer of not so good news

Steve

[Adrian Roberts]

Carrie

You may be interested in the account below by Max Immelman of the action in which your great-uncle died. It comes from a letter from Immelman to his mother dated 18th May 1916.

It occurs to me that you may find it distressing as it concerns your relative, so I would understand if you read no further.

"In the evening [of May 16th], I wanted to test the climbing capacity of a new machine....I flew up and down at 4200 metres; after a while I saw three biplanes far below me......As they were over German territory and no-one was shooting at them, I thought they might be Germans. There was something funny about one of them, however. He seemed to be flying peaceably behind the other two and yet he looked a different type. I decided to have a look at the fellow.

"Down I go in a steep dive.....when I am about 300-400 metres away, I discover that the upper one is a Bristol biplane and the lower two LVGs [German two-seaters]. The Englishman is pursuing one of the Germans. As he is concentrating all his attention on him, he has not noticed me yet. I dive still lower, and when I am 30-40 metres away and 10-20 above him, I get him in my sights and take careful aim. I fire both machine guns simulataneously, 15-20 rounds from each. I must have hit him, for I have never been able to aim so calmly and deliberately. The Englishman goes into a feeble right hand turn, which develops into a heel over to the right...he begins to spin, and vanishes into the haze, so I cannot say whether he has crashed. If he is still alive, he may try to reach his lines. I head for the front to cut him off but he does not reappear. So I fly home.

"On reaching the aerodrome...." [he learns that the fight was witnessed by the German two-seaters who also shot at Mowat] "We brought in the remains of the machine the following morning. It was a one-seater Bristol scout, equipped with a machine gun which could fire forwards and upwards. The pilot was killed by a bullet through the body which passed into the cockpit from above and behind" [which proved that it was Immelman who hit him, not the LVG].

If he was hit in the body rather than the head, he may have survived a few minutes after hitting the ground. If he survived even a short time, he must have regained enough control not to crash catastrophically, which indicates considerable skill and determination on the part of a seriously wounded man.

As air warfare increased in intensity, every fighter pilot would have known that he needed to keep a look out at all times, especially behind him. Sadly, Mowat did not do that. But we must not criticise; what seems obvious to us was not so obvious then. In mid-1916 air warfare was very new; they didn't have the body of knowledge and experience that they would have had even a year later, let alone now. Immelman was one of the first true aces; Mowat probably had virtually no formal combat training. I wouldn't be surprised if his total number of hours flown was barely more than the 40 required for a private pilots licence today. Aerial combat is notoriously cruel to the beginner.

You probably know that Lt Max Immelman, "The Eagle of Lille", was killed in action a month later, aged 25 - the same age as Mowat.

Adrian

[Carr6]

WOW looks like I have a bunch to reply to this morning!

Thanks everyone!

1. SteveE- My Gr Uncle Oliver was eligible for the 1914-15 star. He is cited on a page in the London Gazette.

According to his service papers Oliver joined 3rd arty bde 13 Jun 1915.

I didn't have the London Gazette page for Oliver's M.C Citation. I do however have the war diary account. In there it states that Oliver knew one of the local peasants who told him where the enemy was, then goes the rest of it. It took me hours and hours to sift through everything in the Canadian Archives, but I managed to find everything that had his name on it, including his F.O.O. records.

Adrian Roberts - Thank you so much for that wonderful account. I had most of those details, but not quite the same as yours. Mine were a little more vague. If my Uncle was anything like me, which I am

finding that he is, personality wise, then once he set his mind to something, everything else

around you gets tuned out. Which it sounds like he did concentrating on those two fighters

ahead of him, and not thinking about what else is going on around him. At least I know it runs the family.

It must have taken great courage to even get into those planes, I can't imagine what it was like to fly them.

One last little tidbit, a distant relative of mine, is looking for a great uncle of his. His name is Robert Hunter Mowatt Born 1899 in Scotland. Reg# was 138082 MGC (Machine Gunner Corp?)

If someone could find the time to take a peek somewhere for him we would be truly grateful!

I thank you all again for all your help

I am hoping to have all this finished by the time my dad comes out to visit for out birthdays in April. But then again I have been saying that for the last 2 years, and I haven't finished it yet. With 4 brothers to find, I can only do one at a time. So I started with the easiest, and am now working my way to the hardest!

Cheers

Carrie

[SteveE]

Carrie

My Gr Uncle Oliver was eligible for the 1914-15 star.

In that case I'd suggest that the medal bar is Morden's as there's no Star ribbon on it.

Steve

and you can start your distant relative off with this........ Link to MIC

[Adrian Roberts]

Carrie

Who is the young man in the photo in your profile? Oliver, or Morden, or someone else.

Oliver was clearly unlucky to survive the Great War but die in Russia - was he killed or did he die of illness (as many did)?

Adrian