Questions about Messines Offensive, June 1917

[iain mchenry]

Hi all,

I have a couple of questions with regard to the Messines Offensive, 7th June 1917. The first questions are in relation to the tunnelling campaign, with specific regard to 250th Tunnelling Coy RE.

1. Does anyone know which Officers/SNCO's of the 250th fired the following mines: Hollandscheschuur, Petit Bois, Maedelestede Farm and Peckham?

The other question relates to the 36th (ULSTER) Div on 7th June 17. Specific to the Spanbroekmolen front.

2. For many years I have read and belived that a number of RIR men in Lone Tree Cem died as a result of falling debris from the Spanbroekmolen mine due to its late detonation. I have also read that they came from the 14th RIR (YCV Belfast). Yet in the official history of the 36th (Ulster) Div, the author Cyril Falls mentions that there were no casualties as a result of the explosion (Page 92). Who is correct here? Is the Div history wrong here?

Many thanks

Iain

[Desmond7]

Ian I have also read of fatalities/casualties .. I cannot remember exactly where!! However, I can remember seeing a statement about 'men being subjected to a rain of earth etc etc'!!

Falls tends to be pretty honest about casualties so you are asking a 'toughie'!

From official history below ... my feeling is that Falls would not have held back from mentioning such problems ... as a matter of 'honour' to the men for whom the official history was written?

One of the mines was fifteen seconds late. Curiously enough, it was the doubtful one at Spanbroekmolen.

The infantry had obeyed instructions and had not waited for it. A few of the leading men of the 14th Rifles, out in " No Man's Land," were thrown off their feet by the force of the explosion. But there were no casualties, and the men quickly closed in to the barrage. The size of the craters to be skirted and the darkness made the keeping of direction a matter of difficulty.

[iain mchenry]

Hi Des,

I thought that would be the case with Falls. From what I have read of him he seems pretty close to the point. Like yourself I have seen a number of references to fatalaties as a result of the mine going off late, but no reference as to what source material they have used. Fatalaties or not there must have been some pretty humongous size chunks of earth falling around those men. 91,000 Lbs is no small weight of charge.

Iain

[Desmond7]

I think - I think (stress) I got a book out of the library once. It was written by two fellas and focused on individual soldiers.

One of the chapters was about Messines/and or/mine warfare.

I seem to remember that these guys mentioned something about Irishmen being hit by the earth from the late mine ... this sticks in my mind because they seemed to think the Irishmen were from the south?

I cannot get the exact context ? Maybe someone else will remember the book?

I remember the maps were 'very basic' in fact they looked drawn out with felt tips.

Des

[Mat McLachlan]

Paul Reed in Walking the Salient describes the explosion of the Spanbroekmolen mine on page 179:

'On the day the mine was fifteen seconds late and by that time many men of the 8th Bn Royal Irish Rifles were already part way across No Man's Land. The debris tumbled down on to the attackers, killing and wounding a large number of them...'

Paul is usually pretty spot on with his research, so I'd be interested to hear his comments if he is hovering around the forum....

Cheers,

Mat

[Desmond7]

I've been intrigued by this since it came up.

I searched through various books and eventually looked up 'Ballyshannon, Belcoo, Bertincourt - the history of the 11th R Inis Fus' by W. J. Canning.

Canning has compiled the vast majority of his book from war diaries of the bn. and for Messines he has the following relevant passage, unfortunately I do not know if he is referring to a war diary observation or not.

"Spanbroekmolen mine detonated fifteen seconds later. Many soldiers were killed by rubble and debris in the open. They included men of the 16th and 36th Divs."

There is no mention of which units these men were from, but obviously this differs from the 'Official History' which merely states that a number of men from 14th R I Rifles were thrown off their feet.

Can anyone think of the other book I mentioned? I know it is not Paul Reed's Salient book.

[Papineau]

The book you refer to is probably Ted Smith & Tony Spagnoly's Salient Points.

A major source of this story is also the veteran's accounts in Lyn MacDonald's They Called It Passchendaele[i/]. I am sure there is a first hand account of the incident in there.

I believe it is also mentioned in the HQ War Diary of either the 16th (Irish) or 36th (Ulster) Divisions.

[iain mchenry]

Thanks to all who have replied so far. I will check my copy of Macdonalds Passendale book.

Can any others help with the ID question in relation to 250th Tun Coy RE?

Many thanks in advance.

Iain

[spike10764]

There is no mention of who actually fired the mines you mention, but the OC 250thTC was a Captain Cecil Cropper, R.E. according to Beneath Flanders Fields, Chapter IX, a book I happen to be reading at the moment.

[iain mchenry]

Hi Spike,

I have read about Cropper for a few years. He seems to be one of the best Tunnelling Officers we had. He devised the plan to mine in front of the "Whitesheet" front. His 250th Coy was responsible for the mines I mention. Plus they also started the digging for Spanbroekmolen. He seems quite a charachter by all acounts.

Best regards

Iain

[Terry_Reeves]

Iain

It was the officers responsibilty to fire the charge. I think you will find that two officers were responsible for each of the mines . A search of the war diaries may reveal who was present.

Terry Reeves

[Simon Jones]

Iain emailed me about this and I have replied but I might as well share it... It refers to Alexander Barrie, who wrote War Underground in 1959.

Iain

Only one - Interview with Haydn Rees by Barrie:

[Peckham]

‘We were briefed the day before, and I was chosen to fire the plunger. It was due to go off at 3.10 in the afternoon [sic]. 19 other mines were also going off. We synchronised our watches the day before, but the start of the bombardment was the real signal for the mines to go up. I was at the entrance to the tunnel only about 50 yards from the front line. There was a heavy thud, and the explosion threw a lot into the air, but we had our heads down and didn’t see how high it went.’

Barrie also interviewed and corresponded with Cropper but curiously he did not ask him who fired the mines.

The official records do not include this information. In my La Boisselle research I have only traced the names of firers for two of 179 Coy's four mines from reminiscence or interviews. The tunnellers were quite a modest bunch.

Re falling debris at Spanbroekmolen, I never found evidence to back up the claim that 36 Div men were killed by debris and I think it is an old myth. In fact the debris falls much more quickly than people suppose then and now, this was the great lesson of the Somme. Although the tunnellers had test explosions filmed before 1/7/16 they still couldn't get the message across until after the Hawthorne debacle.

Best wishes

Simon

[spike10764]

Captain Haydn Rees OC no.3 Section, 250th TC is quoted in the book also, though it doesn't definitely say who fired any mines from 250 TC, unlike the interview Simon quotes from.

[iain mchenry]

Simon,

Thanks for the reply and Email. I have had a scan through Lyn MacDonalds book on 1917, it mentiones a quote by Lt T. Witherow 8 RIR whose Coy is attacking Kruisstraat when Spanbroekmolen goes up. He mentions that the men around him were thrown violently to the ground, and debris started to rain down on them. He goes on to say only soft earth falls on him but a LCpl lying next to him, one of his best Sect. Comndrs is hit on the head and killed by a brick. I suppose the brick could also be a result of a shell from the creeping bombardment the men were following dropping short. I suppose we will never know.

If any of you have any personnal accounts that mention 36th Div men killed as a result of Spanbroekmolens late detonation, could you let me know.

Many thanks

Iain

[Alan_J]

You have probably already looked at it, but "Pillars of Fire" has a brief paragraph on the 36th Division at Spanbroekmolen, and it certainly doesn't suggest casualties due to the mine. No mention of who fired the mines you asked about though.

Alan

[Simon Jones]

Iain

Thanks - the Witherow account in They Called it Passchendaele is a good piece of evidence. It would indeed be very interesting to find more accounts and it looks as if I may even have to change my mind about this.

Regards

Simon

[Simon Jones]

Hang on a sec! 8RIR were nowhere near Spanbroekmolen, they were attacking Kruistraat, as Iain says. In fact they were on the extreme right of 36 Div, Witherow's account must refer to one of the Kruistraat mines. So I am still right - there is no evidence that British were killed by the Spanbroekmolen mine!

Simon

[John S]

From the book ‘Beneath Flanders Fields’

‘At 3.00 am Major Stokes was in precisely the location that another officer had wished to be – supervising the Spanbroekmolen mine.

“ .. I had hoped very, very much that I would push the switch in the mine that blew up Spanbroekmolen ….. Instead I was ordered to get up on Kemmel Hill..”

Lt Brain Frayling 171 TC RE’

In her book The Battle Book of Ypres, Beatrix Price quotes

‘It (the mine at Spanbroekmolen) fired 15 seconds late; and though the concussion flung some men, already moving forward in no mans land, to the ground, there were no casualties.’

Regards

John

[iain mchenry]

Simon,

I had that thought as well. Did Witherow get the mine mistaken? As you know, Kruisstraat went up on time and was also under the German second line, so was a fair distance from them. I was down there today walking the ground trying to get a better understanding of it. The frontage given to the 8th RIR seems to be a bit too far from Spanbroekmolen for them to have had debris around them. The only counter-thought to this I have, is what Cyril Falls writes in "Sagitarius Rising" when he describes himself flying over Lochnagar and Y-Sap at 4000ft and the debris coming up and passing(?) his aircraft. Now, with the mine at Spanbroekmolen being one of the biggies, could debris have gone up that far and, in the process of returning to earth, scattered as far as Witherow puts it?

Thanks to others who have replied.

Regards

Iain

[Greenwoodman]

Seen this Iain?

Lt Frayling 121st Tunnelling Coy

[iain mchenry]

Richard,

Thankyou very much for posting that attachment. It made for some interesting reading especially the time around 7 June '17. I had to laugh about Brig-Gen Nugent having to share a toilet with a french farm lady. The other part which made me smile is where he makes reference to the fact that some people initially thought ammonal was a sexual sedative drug administered to over-sexed Americans. This "Minuate" makes funny reading at the back of the book "Tunnelers" by Capt. Grieve.

Best regards

Iain

[spike10764]

Lt Frayling's descriptions of his view from Kemmell Hill and the relationship between men who set the certain mines and men who fired them, suggest your search is going to be a difficult one Iain.

[salientguide]

Ian, - Alexander Barries's book War Underground researched and published in 1961 when many participants were very much alive is a great source of tunnelling information, indeed many subsequent books draw quite heavily on it, not least Sebastian Faulks Birdsong.

At the back is a diagram of the Messines mines and who fired them, all except those of the 250th Tunnelling Company. In the text however Barrie states that Cecil Cropper had gone down with Germa\n measles and invalided off at the instance of the CO RE and the medical officer. His role was taken over by one of his section officers Captain Hayden Rees " the stocky little Welshman from the collieries and the section officer in charge".

He then refers to Rees overseeing repairs to damage to a collapsed gallery and "rewiring the 87,000lb charge for firing by an exploder that he planned to use himself."

Peckham Farm the most southerly of 250th four sites was 87,000lb and so it would seem likely that Peckham was fired by Rees himself. It does not say wether all four were wired to one exploder, possible but I would think that unlikely as eavh generally had a second fallback circuit in case the primary exploder electric or plunger failed to detonate the charge.

My guess is the war diary of the 250th would contain further information.

Hope thats of some interest SG

" to this new concert white we stood;

cold certainty held our breath'

While men in the tunnels below Larch Wood

were kicking men to death!"

Concert Party at Busseboom Edmund Blunden 1917

[iain mchenry]

Salient Guide,

I have read Barries book a number of times and agree it is an excellent source of info. I would reccomend if you havent read or purchased it "Beneath Flanders Fields" by Barton, Doyle and Vandewalle. A great book on mining. It inclkudes a number of letters from Capt H-Rees and it is from that that I am making the presumption that he fired the Peckham mine as you have said. Simon Jones contacted me and said that there was no record in 250th war diaries as to who fired the other mines under the area of responsibility of 250 TC RE. I can only say I suppose we will never know.

Regards

Iain