A H Orlebar

[Adrian Roberts]

Not sure if this should be a WW1 or WW2 question; I'll post it on WW2talk as well.

Does anyone know what happened to Augustus Henry "Orly" Orlebar? He was a Camel ace with seven victories in WW1, but is most famous as commander of the RAF's High Speed Flight that won the Schneider Trophy race in 1931. Rafweb.org gives the date of his death as 4th August 1943, (and the Guinness Book of Records confirms the year) but there is no mention of how he died. Theaerodrome.com does not give even a date of death and a googol search turns up nothing. Did he die in action (unlikely as he was an Acting Air Vice Marshal by then) or in a crash? Or as the manner of his death appears not to be worthy of note, maybe he died of natural causes.

While we're on the subject, does anyone know what happened to HRD Waghorn, winner of the 1929 Schneider race, and to his brother DJ Waghorn who also served with the High Speed Flight and is said to have "died on active service" as an Air Commodore on 1st April 1945.

Adrian

[LowNslow]

Not sure if this should be a WW1 or WW2 question; I'll post it on WW2talk as well.

Does anyone know what happened to Augustus Henry "Orly" Orlebar? He was a Camel ace with seven victories in WW1, but is most famous as commander of the RAF's High Speed Flight that won the Schneider Trophy race in 1931. Rafweb.org gives the date of his death as 4th August 1943, (and the Guinness Book of Records confirms the year) but there is no mention of how he died. Theaerodrome.com does not give even a date of death and a googol search turns up nothing. Did he die in action (unlikely as he was an Acting Air Vice Marshal by then) or in a crash? Or as the manner of his death appears not to be worthy of note, maybe he died of natural causes.

Adrian

Hi Adrian.

The following may be of interest, although I suspect I'm opening up more questions than definitive answers!

It seems that in the early part of WW2 he was officer commanding RAF Northolt, one of the most important fighter stations of the time. As Air Vice Marshal Augustus Orlebar, his final posting appears to have been officer commanding 10 Group RAF fighter command from 22/07/41-04/11/42. I have no information on any RAF career thereafter. It's pure speculation of course, but I suspect he may have been suffering ill-health at that time.

He is buried at St. Mary's Church, Podington, Bedfordshire which was his family church - and is commemorated on the adjacent War Memorial. A little further information appears to be on the Roll of Honour website: http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Bedfordshire...llofHonour.html

Rolling back the clock a little, one of his seven 'kills' appears to have been Lothar von Richthofen. He was hospitalized in Dusseldorf for over a month in March 1917 after Orebar in a Camel and Bristol Fighter crew Geoffrey Hughes and Hugh Claye, jointly claimed forcing down the Triplane flown by the younger brother of the Red Baron.

Steve

[Adrian Roberts]

Steve

Thanks for this link. Interestingly, all the WW2 names are described as "died", not "killed". But it does seem increasingly unlikely that Augustus Orlebar died in action or in any way dramatic enough to be remembered, so he probably did die naturally (at the same age as I am now, worryingly!)

There seem to be two other Orlebars who died for their country over the years on that memorial. I wonder if Christopher Orlebar, the Concord pilot who has written several books, is related?

The Lothar von Richthofen incident is mentioned on theaerodrome.com

Adrian

[Andrew Smith]

Steve

Thanks for this link. Interestingly, all the WW2 names are described as "died", not "killed". But it does seem increasingly unlikely that Augustus Orlebar died in action or in any way dramatic enough to be remembered, so he probably did die naturally (at the same age as I am now, worryingly!)

There seem to be two other Orlebars who died for their country over the years on that memorial. I wonder if Christopher Orlebar, the Concord pilot who has written several books, is related?

The Lothar von Richthofen incident is mentioned on theaerodrome.com

Adrian

Adrian,

I have his obit from the London Times August 5, 1943, PM me if you want a copy

Andrew.

[steve fuller]

And to start his story off, he initially served in the 5th battalion, Bedfordshire regiment, landing in Gallipoli October 1915. Whilst on Sandbag Ridge one night he was pointing out enemy activity to his Company CO & was sniped in the shoulder. The wound was a blighty, thus ended his Infantry career & off he went into the sunset to amaze the world with his aeriel capability.

[Adrian Roberts]

And to start his story off, he initially served in the 5th battalion, Bedfordshire regiment, landing in Gallipoli October 1915. Whilst on Sandbag Ridge one night he was pointing out enemy activity to his Company CO & was sniped in the shoulder. The wound was a blighty, thus ended his Infantry career & off he went into the sunset to amaze the world with his aeriel capability.

...and if the date of birth I have is right, he was only 18 at the time. I suppose the British Army still uses soldiers not much older than that, but what a difference there must be in their experience of life compared with most other 18-year olds

Adrian

[steve fuller]

Oh yea Adrian. Makes you look at some of these brats & thugs that roam the streets in their "gangs" now & think "if you only knew how lucky you lot are ..."!! Having seen & done what they did at their tender ages realy makes you appreciate how times have changed & how lucky we are in comparison.

[LowNslow]

Adrian / Andrew

Did you exchange PMs? Let me out of my misery, what happened to him??

[Adrian Roberts]

Steve

Andrew kindly sent me the Times obituary, which says that he "died in hospital after being taken ill some weeks ago".

He would have only been 46 at the time.

Adrian

[steve fuller]

Thanks Adrian. 46 and all that behind him, what a life eh?

[LowNslow]

Steve

Andrew kindly sent me the Times obituary, which says that he "died in hospital after being taken ill some weeks ago".

He would have only been 46 at the time.

Adrian

Thanks Adrian.

Just a little added background which I discovered last week. Its appears that the Orlebar family were the long-time residents of Hinwick House close to Podington. The war memorial in St. Mary's church also refers to Basil John Orlebar, Captain, 3rd Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment. Killed in action Friday, 15th January 1915 and William Orlebar, 2nd Lieutenant, 19th Hussars, died during siege of Ladysmith, 17th February 1900, Aged 21.

The same war memorial also refers to Gunner Charles Boddington of the Royal Field Artillery. Died Thursday, 19th July 1917. It turns out he's an ancester of my partner in crime on the BE-2c project!

[Guest fiosol]

Hi

I came across this site today, and not sure if you have already discovered the following info you were seeking a couple of years ago:

My mother, a night sister at Westminster Hospital London during World War II, told me many times of how she nursed A H Orlebar when he was dying, and what an amazing man he was. I think his achievements, coupled with his personality impressed her hugely. I think his diagnosis was cancer of the jaw.

I cannot add any more to this - my mum died 2 years ago, aged 90.

Hope this helps

F

[Adrian Roberts]

Fiosol

Thanks very much for this; it adds some detail to what we had found out.

Given the number of men she must have nursed, he must indeed have made a great impression for her to remember him

Your mother must have been well thought of to be a Sister, given that she must have been less than 30 when the war ended.

Adrian

[David W]

In reply to your query, A H Orlebar was the uncle of Chris Orlebar the Concorde pilot and aviation author!

[freddie1942]

Adrian Roberts asked about HRD (Dick) Waghorn and his younger brother DJ Waghorn.

After leaving the RAF high speed flight, Dick was posted to Farnborough and in 1931 was doing fuel supply tests with a civilian engineer on board and they needed to abandon ship. The engineer bailed out and landed safely, but Waghorn was unable to bail out early enough because of waiting for the engineer to get clear and was under 500ft altitude when he finally got clear himself. His parachute did not fully open in time and he was severely injured and died a day or two later. He was married, lived in nearby Farnham and had a baby son, John. John is still alive, lives in Gloucestershire from whom I got this information. John is a skiing friend of mine. His father was a brilliant skier, and a member of the British Ski team in 1930.

Dick is buried in Farnham in the graveyard adjoining the church up the hill on the southside of the town. This graveyard is now abandoned and severely overgrown and on a visit I was unable to identify the grave. The headstone, incorporating the RAF eagle, was removed after the graveyard was abandoned and placed outside the Officers mess at Farnborough. It was known as the Waghorn memorial. When that ceased to be RAF property, it was removed to Boscombe Down, where it still is. I saw it there about 4 years ago.

David Waghorn was killed towards the end of the war, again info courtesy of his nephew John. Apparently his Spitfire piled in almost immediately after take off. He supposedly had a hotted up Griffin fitted and his craft was a PR Spitfire. No definite cause of the accident was ever established.

Freddie Whitelaw

[Adrian Roberts]

Freddie

Thanks for this - I am still interested!

Any idea what aircraft Dick was flying? And what they mean by "fuel supply tests" - was this research into air-to-air refuelling, or something to do with the aircraft type?

Adrian

[john-g]

Just for interest, I am working on a write up about Stanley SB Purves of 19 Squadron. Orlebar served with 19 for a while.

16 January SPAD A263 Practice flight Reserve tank and heat satisfactory. Two landings.

23 January 1917 Test flight in SPAD A263 Engine losing oil owing to badly fitting cam cover.

27 January BE 12 6638 Patrol Hebuterne-Sailly-Saillisel, forced landing East Vert Galand - engine seized due to oil pipe breaking. Pilot and machine unhurt.

14 February SPAD 6663 2 1/2 hr Test flight, Climbed to 10'000 ft in 12 minutes. Reached 16'200 ft (and still climbing) in 34 minutes. Revs on ground 1400 rpm on climb 1450 rpm revcounter broke in air. (may be other comments on next page, but as Purves was not listed did not record.

15 February SPAD A6663 Formation flight. Waited for Capt. Sison at 7'500 ft (rendezvous height) and thought I saw him go down, but was not sure, so waited for half an hour - then landed. Rev counter broke again in air. Machine slightly right wing low. Engine satisfactory.

26 February SPAD 6663 Engine Test Machine satisfactory. Engine satisfactory but not giving full power revs low - being attended to.

2 March Patrol Gommecourt- Puisieux-au-Mont-Irles le Transloy. Spad A6663 Patrol abandoned owing to low clouds at 2'000ft - 3'000ft. machine and engine satisfactory.

4 March SPAD 6663 flew to Cormont arrived and reported back to sqn by phone.

That's all I have.

john_g

www.66squadron.co.uk

[JPAE]

Nigel Orlebar was a cousin of A H Orlebar and Uncle of Christopher, and a well known name in motor racing before WW2 and after. His name is linked to several 'Specials' including a Rabelro [ think about it!] and a Schneider special that emphasises the Family connection. Nigels brother Rupert was a Spitfire pilot in N.Africa and Italy, taking 145 Squadron over from Neville Duke. More name dropping on the Atlas F1 Bulletin board.

Phil.

[freddie1942]

Adrian Roberts asked about HRD (Dick) Waghorn and his younger brother DJ Waghorn.

After leaving the RAF high speed flight, Dick was posted to Farnborough and in 1931 was doing fuel supply tests with a civilian engineer on board and they needed to abandon ship. The engineer bailed out and landed safely, but Waghorn was unable to bail out early enough because of waiting for the engineer to get clear and was under 500ft altitude when he finally got clear himself. His parachute did not fully open in time and he was severely injured and died a day or two later. He was married, lived in nearby Farnham and had a baby son, John. John is still alive, lives in Gloucestershire from whom I got this information. John is a skiing friend of mine. His father was a brilliant skier, and a member of the British Ski team in 1930.

Dick is buried in Farnham in the graveyard adjoining the church up the hill on the southside of the town. This graveyard is now abandoned and severely overgrown and on a visit I was unable to identify the grave. The headstone, incorporating the RAF eagle, was removed after the graveyard was abandoned and placed outside the Officers mess at Farnborough. It was known as the Waghorn memorial. When that ceased to be RAF property, it was removed to Boscombe Down, where it still is. I saw it there about 4 years ago.

David Waghorn was killed towards the end of the war, again info courtesy of his nephew John. Apparently his Spitfire piled in almost immediately after take off. He supposedly had a hotted up Griffin fitted and his craft was a PR Spitfire. No definite cause of the accident was ever established.

Freddie Whitelaw

Adrian Roberts asked about HRD (Dick) Waghorn and his younger brother DJ Waghorn.

After leaving the RAF high speed flight, Dick was posted to Farnborough and in 1931 was doing fuel supply tests with a civilian engineer on board and they needed to abandon ship. The engineer bailed out and landed safely, but Waghorn was unable to bail out early enough because of waiting for the engineer to get clear and was under 500ft altitude when he finally got clear himself. His parachute did not fully open in time and he was severely injured and died a day or two later. He was married, lived in nearby Farnham and had a baby son, John. John is still alive, lives in Gloucestershire from whom I got this information. John is a skiing friend of mine. His father was a brilliant skier, and a member of the British Ski team in 1930.

Dick is buried in Farnham in the graveyard adjoining the church up the hill on the southside of the town. This graveyard is now abandoned and severely overgrown and on a visit I was unable to identify the grave. The headstone, incorporating the RAF eagle, was removed after the graveyard was abandoned and placed outside the Officers mess at Farnborough. It was known as the Waghorn memorial. When that ceased to be RAF property, it was removed to Boscombe Down, where it still is. I saw it there about 4 years ago.

David Waghorn was killed towards the end of the war, again info courtesy of his nephew John. Apparently his Spitfire piled in almost immediately after take off. He supposedly had a hotted up Griffin fitted and his craft was a PR Spitfire. No definite cause of the accident was ever established.

Freddie Whitelaw

[freddie1942]

Adrian

I have a photocopy somewhere, but who knows where, of an article published about the moving of the Waghorn memorial to Boscombe Down. It was there that I got the details. I will find it eventually, but what I remember is that it was experimental work on fuel feed from tank to engine. It was not an early inflight refueling mishap! I think the aircraft was a Hawker Horsley, again it is definitely in the article, all I have to do is find it!

regards

Freddie

[freddie1942]

Freddie

Thanks for this - I am still interested!

Any idea what aircraft Dick was flying? And what they mean by "fuel supply tests" - was this research into air-to-air refuelling, or something to do with the aircraft type?

Adrian

Adrian

Not found the photcopy I wanted, but something almost as good. My memory was more or less correct,

Waghorn was flying a Hawker Horsley and his passenger was a civilian (named E R Alexander) from the RAE. Alexander had minor injuries, Waghorn had several fractures including head injuries from which he is thought to have died. Accident on 5th May, died 7th May. Enormous funeral of about 1000 people, dominated local paper's front page, church on the Bourne in Farnham where he also got married. Funeral attended by Hugh Dowding representing air ministry, (but he was also a skiing friend of Waghorn and they raced against each other), Orlebar representing RAF High Speed Flight and Air vice marshall Lambe representing RAF.

OK?

Freddie

[freddie1942]

Adrian

Not found the photcopy I wanted, but something almost as good. My memory was more or less correct,

Waghorn was flying a Hawker Horsley and his passenger was a civilian (named E R Alexander) from the RAE. Alexander had minor injuries, Waghorn had several fractures including head injuries from which he is thought to have died. Accident on 5th May, died 7th May. Enormous funeral of about 1000 people, dominated local paper's front page, church on the Bourne in Farnham where he also got married. Funeral attended by Hugh Dowding representing air ministry, (but he was also a skiing friend of Waghorn and they raced against each other), Orlebar representing RAF High Speed Flight and Air vice marshall Lambe representing RAF.

OK?

Freddie

[freddie1942]

Final bit of info. Found it online in pages of Flight magazine. Waghorn and Alexander were flying a Hawker Horsley which was normally equipped with an RR Condor engine, a design of 1918 vintage. Their RAE aircraft was, however, fitted with a Buzzard (about 10 years later in design). This was the engine that RR had used and souped up considerably as the basis of the R engine, which was used as the power plant of the Schneider Trophy S 6 and S 6b aircraft (1929 and 1931), also used by Campbell in Bluebird (car and boat) and Segrave in Miss England II (boat) and Eyston in Thunderbolt (car). It was the same capacity as the Griffon which powered the later versions of Spitfire in WWII.

The Horsely was also used to provide test facilities for the Merlin at RAE in 1937. So it seems it was regarded as a good test bed for new engines. Alexander is mentioned as an "engine expert".

Finally, it was very windy on the day of the accident and Waghorn was blown into a building by the wind which he hit rather hard. Broken bones included a thigh and head injuries. Alexander came through a glass roof and was treated for cuts, but was otherwise OK. Waghorn was operated on more or less immediately and regained consciousness on the following day. Despite my previously suggesting head injuries as being the cause of death, Flight suggested a cause that rings a bell, it was due to bone marrow getting into the blood stream. I recall talking to John Waghorn about the death of the racing driver Ronnie Peterson at Monza of such an injury and John said "Yes, that's what my father died of too".

Freddie Whitelaw

[Adrian Roberts]

Thanks, Freddy for all this.

Unfortunately death due to bone marrow contamination is one of those random events that does sometimes happen. Ronnie Peterson was probably the best-known example.

The Horsley was a big aeroplane for a single-engine type and so ideal as a test-bed.

Thanks, John for the info about his WW1 flying.

Adrian