1st East Surreys

[zotiades]

Hi All

Have just been trawling through some really old messages on here (back to 2005) trying to find out anything on the 1st East Surreys when they fought at MONS and found this comment by someone named SQUIRREL, which I found really interesting and was hoping they or someone else might be able to add anything further to it:

"Even during the battle 1st East Surreys had to disengage pretty smartly as the unit on their left withdrew before they had received the order.

Caused them quie a few casualties and over 100 missing but most of these rejoined at Le Cateau."

The reason I'm interested is because I'm trying to piece together what happened to my Grt Grandfather (Pte Westwood of 1ST EAST SURREYS) at MONS and trace his journey home - we have a rather long newspaper report from which I quote a tiny snippet:

"He [Pte Westwood] stated that during the Battle of Mons he and a number of comrades became detached from the main body and their retirement was effectively stopped owing to their being unable to cross a river, the bridge having been blown up just before they arrived."

This resulted in the majority of the group being killed or taken prisoner. He managed to escape.

We know he ended up on a one-man trek through Belgium (long, long story!) and he was with the 1st East Surreys and on his medal claim postcard he is stated as having been with the BEFs.

How did he end up on the other side of the canal, though? I mean, if they were trying to RETREAT over a bridge, that means they would have had to cross the bridge in the first place doesn't it? I just can't work it all out. Have been reading so much info on this site and others, trying to understand - but I'm totally lost with it all and getting quite confused.

Sorry, I know I ramble on a bit but I just have so many things to understand

Any enlightenment would be much appreciated - or in simpler terms...HEEEEELP!

Athenalaz

[squirrel]

Hello athenalaz,

this is a case of me knowing a little which hasn't really helped you a lot.

Best chance of finding out the detail would be to have a look at the Battalion War Diary which is at the National Archives at Kew and also available on line. Somebody else on the forum may be able to add something as well.

By the way, BEF was the British Expeditionary Force, the force that went over to France & Flanders in 1914.

[zotiades]

Hello Squirrel

Thanks so much for your help. Sorry for the delay responding but I've not been online for a couple of days.

I will do a google search for the war diaries and see if I can find the site you were referring to. Hopefully it will help me to straighten this mystery out one day.

Best regards - Athenalaz

[ian turner]

Athanalz,

Just from reading your quotes I deduce that his Bn became disorganised due to the unit on the left withdrawing prematurely.

Due to this, your Gt Gdad's unit had to make a hasty retreat, and in the process the unit was split up. His section came to the river but could not cross since the bridge had already been blown. The further result of this being that his comrades were either killed or captured, since they could not make good their escape.

I can only speculate that your Gt gdad either swam the river, or managed to hide or otherwise evade capture until he could continue his personal retreat.

There is a book about some troops, who having been similarly disorganised, fell behind the German lines. They were hidden by locals and kept in seclusion even after the German occupation, only finally to have their presence given away after some years, leading to their arrest and execution as spies, since they had adopted civvilian clothes to avoid detection.

Ian

PS- my father was in the East Surries in WW2 and ended up at Salonika after the war!

[zotiades]

Hi Ian

Thanks for your input on this one.

You were spot on - just as the soldiers you mentioned in that book - my grt grandfather had to hide out for 4 days in a chicken coop as he was behind the German line. Then he made it to a convent somewhere and they kept him hidden there for a few days, then the Belgian officials issued him with a fake pass and disguise and he made his way on foot through Belgium as a deaf/mute tailor!! Half-way he was given a bicycle by a kind Belgian. So with all the help he received, he made it to the British Consul, then back to England to immediately report himself for duty again.

So, from what you said, it looks as though he was already over the bridge - perhaps he and those others who were disbanded, ventured across a bridge, not realising that the rest of the regiment hadn't gone over, then the bridges were blown and they couldnt get back. That would make sense. I was confused because from what I'd been reading online it appeared that the bridges hadn't been crossed.

That's a coincidence - your father being in the East Surreys and being sent to Salonika after. Grt Grandad was also in Salonika at some point during WW1.

Oh yes - if you happen to remember the name of that book, I'd love to know so I can get a copy.

Thanks again and best wishes

Athenalaz

[ian turner]

Athenalaz,

Not quite - from the extracts you gave, I would suggest he was not over the bridge, nor his comrades. He may have been either lucky in evading capture, or used his initiative to quickly hide.

That is only me reading what you posted earlier. I wasn't there! Maybe he had already crossed? But just from the gist of your info, the bridge had already been blown before yr Gt gdad and his pals arrived, hence why they suffered further casualties and capture.

If I can remember the book I shall let you know. It was published in paperback in recent years.

Ian

PS -I took Dad back to Salonika a few years ago - interesting and historic town.

[zotiades]

Sorry, Ian, am I getting in a muddle again?

I'm trying to picture the map of Belgium in my head...the canal..with the BEF on the south side of it trying to push the Germans northwards - and the Germans who were on the North side of canal trying to push South to advance forward into France (is that right?). Hence why the bridges were blown to prevent the Germans coming South into France, I think.

Oh dear - I don't think I'm doing very well with all of this. Got any Neurofen

So, for my grt grandad to have been stuck over the enemy line, he must have crossed the enemy line (was that the canal?) before the bridges were blown, I think. Maybe a couple of the lost troops ventured over there, realised they were outnumbered but couldn't get back as the bridge was gone.

I think I need to go and have a lie down - trying to fathom out military procedures is a hurting my brain.

You've been very helpful, Ian, and it's much appreciated.

Athenalaz

[ian turner]

Athenalaz,

So, what you are saying is that if the bridge had been blown beforehand, then the Germans would have been on the north side and the British on the south side, no battle possible, and thus WW1 as we know it would not have happened.....

He, he - only joking before my brain requires the Panadol treatment!

Ian

[Paul Nixon]

I found the map below on an internet search. There is no credit to it but I am pretty sure it was taken from The Mons Star by David Ascoli. The 1st East Surrey's were part of the 5th Division and although the baatalion is not specifically identified on the map, they were situated roughly where the words St Ghislain appear.

This is how their action at Mons panned out:

On 22nd August 1914 at around three in the afternoon, the battalion reached the Mons-Conde Canal and began to strengthen its position on the south side of the canal as it waited for the advancing German Armies. C Company alone was positioned on the northern side of the canal. The disposition of the other companies, from left to right, was B Company, HQ, D Company with A Company in reserve behind B Company. The 1st Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry were on the battalion’s left and 2nd King’s Own Scottish Borderers on its right. Having reached their position ahead of the canteens and with no supplies available, the men of the East Surreys were ordered to eat half of their iron rations.

On Sunday 23rd August 1914 the battalion diary notes: “Owing to the advance of the Germans about 1pm, all work [constructing fire trenches] had to cease… The attack was soon passed and several casualties quickly occurred in this section [C Company]. By 3pm the attack was being pressed all along the line.”

The railway bridge and road bridge were blown up by sappers and the companies retreated south of the River Haine. The war diary continues: “After reporting to Brigade Headquarters at Thulin, the battalion marched to Bois de Boussu where it eventually bivouacked about 2am in a factory yard. Total casualties in this action were five officers and 134 other ranks killed, wounded and missing.”

This casualty figure was later quantified as two officers wounded and three missing with two Other Ranks killed, four wounded and 128 missing.

The Official History, (1914, Vol I), has this to say:

On the left of the 13th Brigade, the 14th … occupied the line of the canal from the railway bridge of Les Herbieres westward to Pommeroeul road bridge, a front of two and a half miles. The 1/ East Surrey were on the right, holding the railway bridge itself, with one company pushed across to the north bank.

At the railway bridge of Les Herbieres, the Germans - of the 6th Division of the III Corps - began by bringing a machine gun into action in a house about half a mile from the barricade put up by the East Surrey (14th Brigade). This was instantly silenced by one of the East Surrey machine guns; the Germans thereupon searched all the houses round the railway bridge with shell, in the hope of locating it. They then tried to push forward in small columns… The enemy then plied the East Surrey defences with shrapnel and machine gun fire for half an hour, causing no casualties but disabling one machine gun; after which, about 1:30pm he attacked with two battalions of the 52nd in mass, which advanced across the open at a range of six hundred yards… At this point therefore, the Germans were decisively repulsed with very heavy loss, at the cost of trifling casualties to the East Surrey.”

It was not until about 6pm, when guns were brought up within close range and destroyed the barricade over Les Herbieres road bridge that the Scottish Borderers withdrew to the Southern bank. The East Surreys (14th Brigade) withdrew their advanced parties from north of the canal about the same time. The battalion then retired by alternate companies to the position ordered near Thulin, south of the Haine.

[Frajohn]

"There is a book about some troops, who having been similarly disorganised, fell behind the German lines. They were hidden by locals and kept in seclusion even after the German occupation, only finally to have their presence given away after some years, leading to their arrest and execution as spies, since they had adopted civvilian clothes to avoid detection."

I believe the book you are referring to is;

A Foreign Field by Ben Macintyre ISBN 0-00-653171-7

A very good read

Kind regards

John

[zotiades]

Athenalaz,

So, what you are saying is that if the bridge had been blown beforehand, then the Germans would have been on the north side and the British on the south side, no battle possible, and thus WW1 as we know it would not have happened.....

He, he - only joking before my brain requires the Panadol treatment!

Ian

Ian

Hmmmm...now there's a very interesting thought

Have you seen the reply above from Paul? I think he's solved the little mystery on this one with what he found in the War Diaries. It appears that all the British troops were on the South side of the canal - apart from C Company who were the only ones positioned over on the North side! I will have to try to find out if there are any records to show which Company grt grandad was with - but even if I can't find that - I think I have to assume he was part of C Company and that's how he got stranded over the North side of the canal with his comrades - amongst the enemy.

Have learnt so much today, the fog is finally beginning to clear!

Kind regards - Athenalaz

[zotiades]

Paul - you're a star!

Thank you for the map and all the info you've supplied on this thread and on my other Mons thread.

I've just been looking on the NA site and did a search on WO 95/1563 - the 2st East Surrey war diary 1914 from the info on your source list on your website. It says that I can order 5 pages of that file for £6.50. I think I might give it a go - I just hope I get the correct 5 pages!

I'm sure that there have been a few of us on here who have benefited from all the info you've supplied about the East Surreys at Mons - so on behalf of everyone who's found this enlightening, a huge thank you!

Kind regards

Athenalaz

[zotiades]

"There is a book about some troops, who having been similarly disorganised, fell behind the German lines. They were hidden by locals and kept in seclusion even after the German occupation, only finally to have their presence given away after some years, leading to their arrest and execution as spies, since they had adopted civvilian clothes to avoid detection."

I believe the book you are referring to is;

A Foreign Field by Ben Macintyre ISBN 0-00-653171-7

A very good read

Kind regards

John

John - that's excellent!

Many thanks - I shall definitely have a look around for that one.

Kind regards

Athenalaz

[ian turner]

1) A Foreign Field by Ben Macintyre - it is indeed. Thanks for the prompt, John.

2) Brief history & map - completes the matter, thanks Paul.

So, Athenalaz, no more need for Nurofen tonight!

Ian

[Sinbad Glen]

On 14/02/2006 at 21:29, zotiades said:

Ian

Hmmmm...now there's a very interesting thought

Have you seen the reply above from Paul? I think he's solved the little mystery on this one with what he found in the War Diaries. It appears that all the British troops were on the South side of the canal - apart from C Company who were the only ones positioned over on the North side! I will have to try to find out if there are any records to show which Company grt grandad was with - but even if I can't find that - I think I have to assume he was part of C Company and that's how he got stranded over the North side of the canal with his comrades - amongst the enemy.

Have learnt so much today, the fog is finally beginning to clear!

Kind regards - Athenalaz

(Cue zombie thread comments, but WTF 😋)

If you're still around Zotiades,

C Company were over the canal, with elements (AFAIK 1 & 2 Platoons) of A Company sent in support - this as per Tew's sketched map from his notes that became the basis for the history.

So, your Grt Grandad Pte Westwood may have been A Company, in which case, he would have been in the same Company as mine, possibly the same Platoon, as mine (Pte Baldwin) was over the canal as well.

16 years later... who knows, but interesting anyway 😎

[Michelle Young]

I very much doubt it, @zotiadeslast visited in 2006. 

[Sinbad Glen]

I'll be surprised as well Michelle, but worth a post just in case, given the two old boys might have served together 🙂