chrisreeve Posted 9 February , 2006 Share Posted 9 February , 2006 We have finally located the where abouts of Crab Crawl Tunnel(Thanks Jonn). It seems to have been located in the Tor Top tunnel system, can anybody throw some light on this area? Are they still there, can they be visited? I'm sure i read somewhere that this area is now a Canadian Memorial, is this correct? Many Thanks for any info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 February , 2006 Share Posted 9 February , 2006 A rather complicated issue. The difference between Mount Sorrel, Hill 62 (Canadian Monument), Doppelhöhe, Tor Top has been discussed before on the forum, but I can't find where and when (Search Machine seems not to work). It was discussed recently on a Dutch Forum. This is a link, but of course, it is in ... Dutch. http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/view...ighlight=sorrel An extract of an IGN map below. Where you see the "60" within that height line, is Mount Sorrel. Some 900 meters north northeast of it is Hill 62 (Canadian Monument). The two have often been confused, even during the war. Years ago, a tunnel system or dug out was explored. (1980s ?) Right now there is nothing left I suppose. Maybe Bert Heyvaert knows more ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 9 February , 2006 Share Posted 9 February , 2006 Aurel and Chris, I am sure this tunnnel was entered and explored by Peter Barton and Johan Vandewalle more recently in the nineties. If it is the tunnel in question then it stars in the documentary made by Peter Barton, The Underground War. I may be wrong, but I think this is the tunnel system where Lt Westacott fought hand to hand with the Germans for 24 Hrs underground as during his shift underground the Germans took the allied trenches above them. On finishing their shift and ascending the shaft a lot of grey uniforms greeted them . Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 February , 2006 Share Posted 9 February , 2006 Iain, Yes, that's the tunnel exploration I meant. What made me hesitate however is that it appears that there are more tunnel systems. - Tor Top Tunnels (= Doppelhöhe) - Hedge Tunnels (= Mount Sorrel) See the map posting in the thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...topic=45234&hl= And I don't know which of both systems was explored by P. Barton and J. Vandewalle in the 1990s. I always heard it was "Mount Sorrel", and this would mean that it was Hedge Tunnels, and not Tor Top Tunnels... But as the names are so often confused... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 9 February , 2006 Share Posted 9 February , 2006 Aurel, Is Hedge Tunnels the same as Hedge Street Tunnel? If so 2nd Yorkshires lost a lot of officers and men in a fire there in January 1918, the tunnel having to be sealed to prevent the fire spreading. An electrical fault was blamed. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisreeve Posted 9 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 9 February , 2006 This area seems to have changed hands over the course of the war. My Great Gt Uncle was killed there in March 1917, in Crab Crawl Dugouts, which now seems to have been part of Tor Top. Refering back to the map of the tunnels, what kind of area would something like that cover? Could it be possible that over time all the tunnels mixed in with all the others. This would understandably cause confusion to the name and exact location. Perhaps a Trench map of that time would help matters. It would be great to see if any of the tunnels and dugouts still remained. I had a quick look on ther Dutch thread regading this, facinating black and white aerial photo. Is it a photo of area in question? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 9 February , 2006 Share Posted 9 February , 2006 I don't know really. I think Vandewalle explored tunnels at Mount Sorrel. Regarding Tor Top, doe sthe prefix 'Tor' means that there are actually two tops? Anyone? Further from the rest I think you should pose Franky Bostyn, curator from Zonnebeke museum, this question. I think he would be able to shed more light on this. Best is just to call up the memorial Museum Passchendaele 1917 and ask for him. Shouldn't be difficult to find the phone number on line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 February , 2006 Share Posted 9 February , 2006 Aurel, Is Hedge Tunnels the same as Hedge Street Tunnel? Bob. Sorry, Bob. I made a mistake. Hedge Street Tunnel is what I meant. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 9 February , 2006 Share Posted 9 February , 2006 For the curious with time on their hands, the diary of the 2nd Tunnelling Company, Canadian Engineers, notes the start of the Hedge Street system late in 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisreeve Posted 11 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2006 John Reed has again come up trumps for us. Over on my mine and Andy's other thread(Documents/maps) John has kindly put a modern day map super imposed over a an old trench map of the Tor Top area. Tried to add a link but couldn't, Aurel you mentioned it earlier. Does this throw much light on things anybody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisreeve Posted 11 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2006 Is there anyone who could show the exact German and Allied lines in this area around March 1917? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 11 February , 2006 Share Posted 11 February , 2006 Chris, I saw John's map in the other thread. I'm afraid it is not 100% correct. (I mean the two arrows) There is a distinction between : - Hill 62 = Canadian Monument - Tor Top = Doppelhöhe, which is approx. 250 - 350 m south of it (not easy to put an exact distance on it since it is a double top) And to make it complete, and because the confusion often applies to this one too : - Mount Sorrel, which is approx. 900 m south southwest of Hill 62. Sorry, I have no trench maps with the exact positions of German and Allied lines March 1917. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snavek Posted 23 March , 2006 Share Posted 23 March , 2006 My research into a Canadian Pioneer lost at Mount Sorrel is looking a bit tattered if Tor Top is that far away from Hill 62. My contact in Canada quoted the British Official History (1916) p.228 as saying "the ridge of land held by the Canadians which overlooked the German lines passed over Mount Sorrel...and finally continued to a double summit marked on the map by two 60 metre ring contours-called by the Canadians 'Hill 61' and 'Hill 62' being better known as 'Tor Top". The Canadian Official History, p.131 states "[the ridge passed] in succession over a flat knoll called Mount Sorrel and two slightly higher eminences,'Hill 61' and 'Hill 62', the latter known as 'Tor Top". His suggestion is that the Canadians preferred 'Hill 62' and the British 'Tor Top'. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 24 March , 2006 Share Posted 24 March , 2006 Yes, you might have a point there. Iain McHenry showed me yesterday that some farms north-esat of Ypres also had Canadian & British names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisreeve Posted 25 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 25 March , 2006 Can we now say that Tor Top and Hill 62 could very well be the same place? If so i could finally nail down the exact location of Crab Crawl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOSTURM Posted 24 October , 2022 Share Posted 24 October , 2022 On 09/02/2006 at 13:37, Bob Coulson said: Aurel, Is Hedge Tunnels the same as Hedge Street Tunnel? If so 2nd Yorkshires lost a lot of officers and men in a fire there in January 1918, the tunnel having to be sealed to prevent the fire spreading. An electrical fault was blamed. Bob. My cousin, Lt Herbert Parlby Walton was wounded at Hedge Tunnels, Mount Sorrell on 7th December 1917 and died at the aid post. He was 2ic D Company, 2nd Yorkshires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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