yellow Posted 1 February , 2006 Share Posted 1 February , 2006 I am hoping a true expert of the Notts and Derby Regiment can help me solve a mystery that has been bugging me for almost 10 years. This concerns one Colour Sergeant of the 7th Battalion (Robin Hood Rifles) the Notts and Derby Regiment. Below is his record card which clearly states K in A 28.7.1917 There is no war grave for this man or commeration and Soldiers Died in the Great War has no entry............were the reports of colour Sergeant Hunts death greatly exaggerated? Kind Regards, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 1 February , 2006 Share Posted 1 February , 2006 I am hoping a true expert of the Notts and Derby Regiment... Rules me out then. Interesting problem. I'll look into it, though if you've spent such a long time on it I presume it's going to be tricky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 1 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2006 Many thanks for your interest Andrew. I had assumed that this was an error on the MIC however no one else with this surname is listed on the CWWG as being killed on this date? Would you say Hunt is 1/7th? I did think perhaps if it can be proven he was killed then I could contact War Graves with the hope they would at least add him to their database and get his name on the relevant memorial in France. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 1 February , 2006 Share Posted 1 February , 2006 Sherwood numbering is not a precise art but the territorials are usually straightforward and in this case a six digit number beginning with 265 is classic 7th battalion so I think you've got the battalion right. Interestingly the date of entry is almost exactly 4 months after the 1/7th arrived in France, so he wasn't with the first batch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 2 February , 2006 Share Posted 2 February , 2006 I agree with Andrew on his numbering; 4 digits followed by the 26xxxx series follows that of the 7th Foresters. He was at least alive (or posted missing) in Jan-Feb 1917 when the renumbering took place. As far as I can decipher the first batch of reinforcements joined the Battalion on July 4th 1915 (or thereabouts); Lieut RG Pyatt and 103 OR "have been sent out to make good the casualties”, which ties up with his arrival in F & F on 28.6.15 He is not listed in either the Casualty role that I have or the Battalion History (1/7th, 2/7th & 3/7th) The 1/7th were in the ‘St Elie left’ sector during July 1917 – but no mention of casualties is made in the Battalion History It’s not clear to me how the MICs were derived. Were they were transcribed by Clerks from the Army Service Records – mistakes could be made? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 4 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2006 Many thanks for your interest so far gentleman and look ups. I did think this was a mistake by a clerk but there is no man by the name of Hunt killed on that day. From handling a few of these cards many only state K in A whilst this card lists a precise date.........my point being it would have to be a very severe mistake. It is odd a Regiment would forget one of its senior NCO's........I was thinking perhaps that he may of been captured on the day and the CO assumed he was KIA? Does anyone have the war diary entry for 28-7-1917 1/7th Battalion? Kind Regards, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 5 February , 2006 Share Posted 5 February , 2006 Unfortunately I don't have the 7th Diary for that period, but I do have the 5th, 6th and 8th of the same Brigade, which may help set the scene:- 5th Battn:- 26th 1917 to 29th 1917: In Brigade support. Battn engaged nightly on working parties 6th Battn:- 24.7.17 Battn relieved 9th Suffolk in right sub section of St Elie sector 31.7.17 Battn relieved by 1/5th Sherwood Foresters and went into support; 2 Companies remaining in line in support to 5th Battn. Casualties:- 8 OR wounded 8th Battn:- 24/25: The Battn took over the left Battn area of the line of the St Elie sub sector.....2 Coys of 7th Sherwood Foresters were attached in support 24/30: During this period the Battn occupied the line no events of any moment occurred. At times there was considerable enemy trench mortar activity but very little shelling 30/31: The Battn was relieved by the 7th Sherwood Foresters. Casualties for month:- Officers wounded 2, Other ranks killed 4 wounded 4 So for the period in question it would seem that the 6th and 8th Battns were holding the front lines trenches with 2 Company support from the 5th and 7th Battns. I think my money would still be on this being a mistake on the MIC because he is not listed in:- SDGW CWGC Roll of Honour in 7th Battalion History Sherwood Foresters Roll of Honour It would be very unusual if all four sources failed to record his death. I certainly know the CWGC is 'missing men' (my Aunties G/Father was one of them), but for the others as well................. It’s possible of course that 'something' did happen that day, which was recorded in his record and not subsequently removed. This would then have been copied by the clerk who was assembling the medal roles. I’ve come across quite a few mistakes in the MICs. For example I have 12 cards which indicate that men arrived in France on 29.2.15; 1915 wasn’t a leap year and that day never existed. Agree its not as big a mistake as incorrectly recording ‘k in a’ ! How about this for a long shot. You're an Army clerk filling in 1000s of MICs. You have a pile of Sherwood Foresters Army Service Records in front of you (in near alphabetical order?) and its been a long day. You inadvertantly fill in the next mans details on Hunt's card A great mystery – good luck Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 5 February , 2006 Share Posted 5 February , 2006 ..........and here's another reason why I think that the MIC might be wrong A certain Coy Qr Master Sergt J Hunt (B Company) arrived with the 7th Battalion at Le Harve on 28th February 1915 and not the 28th June - same man? Unfortunately the Battalion History has not recorded his regimantal number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 5 February , 2006 Share Posted 5 February , 2006 Well done Mike. I'd say you have cracked it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 5 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2006 Fascinating..........thanks for your ineterest. Sorry chaps ............. 1251 Company Quarter Master Serjeant W. Hunt - Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment I believe this is man in the history........I think they have got the two hunts mixed up? Hes got the TA number but something must of happened to him before the number change. Sorry I`m even more confused! Has anyone got anymore details on Huntback.......do we know what happened to him? He appears to have no war grave? Not a 7th Battalion man I see. It appears the 1/7th Diary is only on the TNA web site for 1918.........does Nottingham Castle hold a complete copy? Or was is some how destroyed? Many Thanks, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 5 February , 2006 Share Posted 5 February , 2006 Steve I think that 1251 CQMS W Hunter was a regulalr - he has a 14 Star and Mons Clasp. He might of course have been a Reservist or Territorial soldier called up to fill the ranks. He's not the same person as CQMS J Hunt. BUT, I can't find him listed in the NCOs that went to France with the 1st or 2nd Battn (I will look a bit harder) Arthur Huntback was from Carlton, Notts and killed with the 1/8th Sherwood Foresters. Named as Huntbach on Forester's Roll and CWGC - just to confuse us all "Son of Mr. and Mrs. James Huntbach, of "Edenside," Morley Rd., Thorneywood, Nottingham. Enlisted Aug., 1914." PHILOSOPHE BRITISH CEMETERY, MAZINGARBE (which ties in with their position in Lens) As regards the PRO, what I think they are doing is posting Pdf copies of war diaries as and when people have them scanned (instead of photocopied). There is a copy at the PRO - I copied some of 1916 (but not 1917) cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 5 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2006 Hi Mike, Thanks for clearing that up. He might of transfered from regs to TA? I am lead to believe CQMS is a promotion from Colour Sergeant......why is there no record of this on the MIC? Pardon me in saying but it would appear every entry on the MIC is wrong! You see as a CQMS this man may of spent a little time in the line with the 8th particlarly as his job would of been moving stores. But having said the 8th Diary would of mentioned his death perhaps if he was helping them out? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 5 February , 2006 Share Posted 5 February , 2006 Hi Steve You've get me there. I'm not sure of the Rankings at all. I've always thought that there was only 1 Colour Sergeant, so he was more important than 4 Company Sergeants, but I'm happy to be corrected on that. I've posted the NCO Roll for both the 7th and 8th Battns - they don't even mention Colour Sergeants. 7th (Hunt is in B Company) and 8th (more Sergeants than you know what to do with) As regards the promotion on the MIC - thats a really good point. Were all promotions recorded on an MIC? Was it down to the discretion of individual clerks? Was the rank inscribed on the Medal that of the soldier when the Medal was authorised (or the final rank at end of War or death)? One thing is for certain. If C/Sgt Hunter didn't die in the War then he was very lucky. The 1/7th was disbanded in 1918 and many of the men tranfered to the 2/7th Battn. These were in the front line on March 21st 1918 and suffered casualties of 26 Officers and 629 OR. Practically wiped out. Perhaps being a colour Sergeant he was sent back to England with the Cadre of the 1/7th and missed it all? Did you try to locate his Army Service Records or contact the Regimental Archivist? Another way might be to look through the Regimental Annuals for the post-war period. If he didn't die he may get a mentiion. Chesterfield Library has a good set. I just find it difficuly to believe his death was not recorded somewhere. Very Interesting! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 5 February , 2006 Share Posted 5 February , 2006 Steve, Mike Andrew, I am probably only adding to the confusion but I have searched various records, papers etc., to try to identify a man called A. HUNT who is listed on the Village Memorial at Whitwell, Derbyshire. without any luck. The J.E. Hunt whose M.I.C. shows Theatre of War date of entry 28 June 1915 is the same date of entry on my Father's M.I.C who went to the 8th Battalion S/F. and the Roll No. F/1B4,page No. for the 15,Star is 298 that shown for J.E.Hunt is 321. My Father's Regiment al No.(s) were 3441 and 70824. Regards Cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 5 February , 2006 Share Posted 5 February , 2006 Blimey. I last looked at this query a couple of days ago and....wow! Mike, are you really Sherlock Holmes in one of his cunning disguises? I have nothing else to add. I'll just exit stage left and watch in awe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 5 February , 2006 Share Posted 5 February , 2006 I am hoping a true expert of the Notts and Derby Regiment... You are on a lucky streak - quick, have a go at the lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 6 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2006 Mike....your right Colour Sergeant is a rank above CQMS. Thanks for the scans. From what everyone has said it appears Hunt's in the N&D's are really difficult to research and a minefield. Thanks for your help everyone. It looks like I`ll have to get in touch with Nottingham Castle Museum. Kind Regards, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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