German Spring Offensive 1918

[Guest Standtoo]

Hi everybody

I have many questions so hopfully some of you might be able give answers or speculate like me so here goes. If trying to understand Haigs back to the wall order

If the Ports of Dunkerque, Calais, Boulogne had fallen in 1918 would it be the end of British involment or could the BEF be able to be suplied through Dieppe and Le-Havre further south, would the Germans have to physicaly stand in the ports to make them untenable to the Brits or could the Germans bring up their big guns and bombard the ports to achieve the same. Had the Germans made enough ground to be able to do this if they wanted to. How strategic were these ports 1918. I think that without these ports it would have all over for the Brits are there any other conclusions out there

Cheers Bob

[Geoff Parker]

Bob

I do not believe that the Germans managing to reach and capture or invest the Channel ports in

1918 would have necessarily meant the withdrawal of the BEF from the Continent. A major factor

would be whether or not the BEF had effectively been destroyed during the retreat to the coast.

If the BEF could still be considered a fighting force, I believe it would have moved further southwest

and been supplied from ports like Rouen, Le Havre and Cherbourg. and if necessary other ports on

the Brittany coast. I think there are several points to consider, for instance what would be the

state of the French Army in the north and of the French government and people in general if the

area east of the Somme including the Channel ports and Belgium had been lost.

In 1940 the BEF had to be evacuated from Dunkirk because in had been effectively cut off

as the Germans had reached the coast in the area of the Somme estuary. There were other

BEF units operating further to the west of the Somme and they were withdrawn through Rouen

and Brittany. In fact the 51st Highland Division was sent to France by Churchill specifically to

bolster French resolve after Dunkirk (although off the top of my head I cannot remember

which port(s) the Division landed) and as a consequence was lost in the St Valery area west of the

Somme. I have see a photograph of a Scammell Pioneer tank transporter somewhere in France

following the evacuation from Dunkirk and have photographs of the same vehicle in the Western

Desert a year later.

If the German attacks of 1918 had been successful and the French had decided to cut their loses

and ask for an armistice, I think it unlikely that the BEF and AEF would have remained on French

soil. But who knows. I my opinion there are many similarities between what could have happened

in 1918 if the Germans were successful and what did actually happen in 1940.

Thats my two penny worth on the subject

Geoff

[Guest Standtoo]

Cheers Geoff thanks for the input

Thank goodness for the ternasity courage and resolve of the British Tommy at that desperate time in 1918

Bob

[mebu]

I think you will find that there were plans for a full evacuation. The last line of defence was the GHQ line, this included the inundation with sea water of the Aa and Colme valley from St Omer, towards Dunkerque, to Veurne. Southwards the GHQ Line (which was well sited, on key positions and constructed in safety well away from the enemy....rather like the Hindenburg Line. Not finished, but bits can still be found today) went down well west of Arras, to the west side of Amiens. By the time GHQ was taken, most brass would be in Blighty. Peter.

[Guest Farnboro Flyer]

Can you say which of the Regiments bore the brunt of the Spring offensive by the Germans?

Of those captured, how many were taken in that push?

And who held the line eventually?

Ian

[paul guthrie]

The ports further south were overwhelmed as it was handling American shipping, lots in British boats, but American and they could not handle both.

[Chris Backhouse]

Not sure how likely a German breakthrough was in the north to the channel ports was. Not very, I would say. Haig was fully aware of this danger and had held back forces for such an event. The initial spectacular sucessess of the Germans in the south, on the Somme, was partly due to the poor defensive positions inherited from the French and the overstretch (to use a modern term) of Gough's 5th Army. Neither was the case in the north. When the blow did fall in the the Lavente area it made relively modest gains and at a high price. They couldn't even make it to Hazebrouck, for it's rail centre.

[Mark Hone]

As I recall the British came pretty close to ordering a fall back to Dunkirk (shades of 1940) as Operation 'Georgette' swept onto the Monts Des Flandres.

[BeppoSapone]

In fact the 51st Highland Division was sent to France by Churchill specifically to

bolster French resolve after Dunkirk (although off the top of my head I cannot remember

which port(s) the Division landed) and as a consequence was lost in the St Valery area west of the

Somme. I have see a photograph of a Scammell Pioneer tank transporter somewhere in France

following the evacuation from Dunkirk and have photographs of the same vehicle in the Western

Desert a year later.

Geoff

Geoff

As you say, you are doing this post from memory, but you have this slightly wrong. In May 1940 the 51st Highland Division was in France, but detached from the main British Army.

There was a scheme for British divisions to serve with the French on the Maginot Line. When the fighting started the 51st was on the Saar and fought its way to the coast in the hope of being evacuated. They surrendered at St. Valery-en-Caux on 12th June.

Down by St. Valery

The Highland Division, they fought and they fell

Although they were battered by shot and by shell

Yet they were determined to fight and go free

Down by St. Valery

That night on the cliff tops, I'll never forget

As we lay on the ground and it was soaking wet

These memories will ever last for aye

Down by St. Valery

The planes high above us kept dropping their bombs

When we on the ground kept on singing our songs

They thought they had got us, but they were wrong

Down by St. Valery

Then far out to sea, we spied the Boys in Blue

Came for to carry us home

There's a debt that we owe them we can never repay

There's a debt we will owe them for many a day

And each night in our prayers we will always say

God Bless the Boys in Blue.

Actually, despite this song, very few of the Highlanders were evacuated. Most spent the next five years in German POW camps. The famous "Highway Decorators", what we now know as the 51st Highland Division - North Africa, Sicily and NW Europe - was a re-named 9th Scottish Division.

"Lost in the Battle for France in 1940 was the whole of the cream of the Highland Territorial Army, the 51st Highland Division, which had been forced to surrender at St Valery-en-Caux. This Division was reconstituted overnight by simply renaming the 9th Scottish Division, then stationed at home, as the 51st Highland Division." Source: http://www.cualann-scottish-books.co.uk/books/lion.htm

The Churchill "bolster the French" thing was the short lived, and almost forgotten, 2nd BEF. Another Scottish division was part of this force, which is probably how your error arose. Elements of the 52nd Lowland Division landed at St Malo on 13th June, the day after the 51st Highland surrendered at St Valery.

This whole venture was another of Churchill's lost causes. After hardly any, if any at all, fighting the 2nd BEF was evacuated from Cherbourg on 18th June 1940.

Hope this helps.