Whole batter killed or injured ?

[Kathie]

Lt Arthur Dell )SAH or ASH Dell) was with 15th Seige Battery. He was injured 29th September and died at a casualty clearing station on 5th November and is buried at Tincourt Cemetery. When I visited I was amazed to discover a number of other RGA men buried there who died over the period 29th Sept to about 8th Nov.

Here are my questions:

1. How many men in a battery?

2. I understand the War Diary fo teh 15th Seige battery is missing - Dicky Flory advised a while ago. so is there anyway we can find out exactly where they were and what happened to them?

3. Would a battery be decimated because it was hit by enemy shells or would their own ammunition explode?

Any ideas or thoughts

Kathie

[KONDOA]

Kathie

There were approx 180 men in a Siege Battery so far as I can determine. There may be a war diary at the Firepower Library at Woolwich but unfortunately one has to visit to read them.

Roop

[essdee]

Kathie

1...

I had a look at Monthly Distribution of Army some time ago and prior to Dec 17 it would list the Established and Effective strength of any given battery ie 171 SB... Establishment - 134... Effective - 78 as per April 1917. The Establishment figures varied from 120 to 180 from battery to battery. Why this was I can't say, the Effective strength was obviously down to losses - wounded, killed, on leave, sick etc.

3...

Either or both

2...

15 Siege battery were at this time part of the 21st HAG - 3 Corps - 3 Army. They had in early August been part of 17 Corps artillery east of Arras and moved 25/30 miles SSE on 14th August to the village of Villers Guislain. The battery was split into 2 sections(2 guns/section) one remaining at above with the second moving about 2.75 miles SSE to Epeny. One section left 3 Corps 3rd Army for the 5th Army area on the 28th. but which one I don't know.

21st HAG diary

25 Sept

Bombardment & support during raid in Bleak Sector by 121 Inf. Bde. Zero hour 7.30pm.

28 Sept.

HQ & one section forming 1st Echelon of personnel of 15 SB & 240 SB. 115,171,355 SB for 5th Army.

15 Siege Battery position 25.9.17

2 Hows X9a 1.4 Villers Guislain

2 Hows F1c 0.7 Epeny

21st HAG position 25.9.17

Sunken road NE of Heudecourt 57C W16a 7.6

"" 3 Corps RA commander message 25 Sept. to 3rd Army.

Hostile artillery for period ending 6pm 25th.

Hargicourt - Templeaux road was shelled with H E and gas shells about 11pm.

Vacated battery position in L21 heavily shelled from 10am onwards by 15 cm battery from G29a.

Farm Pond and Minnow trenches shelled lightly during morning.

At 8.50am Birdcage and adjacent trenches shelled for about two hours by various calibres.

11.30 - 4.00pm about 200 21cm Hows round position X7d.

1.55am battery position in F2a shelled by 15cm & 10.5cm Hows.

During morning F8b recieved 200 rounds of 15cm or 21cm How.which stopped at 12.40pm

R25.d shelled intermittently and heavily all day with 15cm Hows 400 rounds in all ""

This is one of a number of regular messages sent from the Commander RA to the 3 Army. I suspect the battery positions mentioned are field artillery as none of them match the heavy artillery location list for the same period. It does however give you a bit of an idea as to what they are all putting up with.

Thats all I have at the moment

Stuart

[Kathie]

Stuart, this is fantastic thank you.

question: What does "2 hows" mean? Is it code for something.

If my chap is buried at Tincourt, and he was at the clearing station there - his family received no less than three telegrams telling them of injury, where he was, that they couldnt visit, condition not improving, dead - then he would have been injured somewhere in that area. If the other RGA men were injured and died or died outright and are buried in tincourt then that suggests the section to whcih you refer was close by. Otherwise why not bury them where died if far away. so would this suggest to you where this section of 15th Siege BAttery might have been?

I dont have the Division records or anyone elses and couldnt access from where I am so Im sorry to impose this reading on you who seem to have it.

Many thanks.

Kathie

[Bombadier]

What does "2 hows" mean? Is it code for something.

2 Howitzers (Type of gun) I would suggest, followed by map references of where they had been placed.

Nigel

[essdee]

Kathie

As Nigel has rightly pointed out 2 Hows is an abbreviation for two Howitzers. If you go to the Long Long Trail sister site you will find details on Howitzers.

I've attached the allocation of batteries entry for 15 SB which I forgot to do last time.

Stuart

[essdee]

Kathie

I've had a look at the maps and Tincourt Casualty Clearing Station was about 6 miles SW of Epehy. The railway line ran down from Villers Guislain through Epehy to Tincourt north along the river Somme and back up the coast to Abbeville.

Epehy was the nearest to Tincourt, but as they were both on the same line its difficult to say which section was the first to move and which section remained and suffered casualties

The 6th October entry for the 21 HAG reads " 2nd Echelons of 15 & 171 SB left group for 17 Corps Area.

The rest of October is just a record of battery moves in/out of the HAG.

The final entry reads " No operations of importance occured during the period under review. A few minor artillery concentrations were carried out."

WO 95/498 5 Casualty Clearing Station 1914 Aug. - 1919 May

WO 95/562 13 Casualty Clearing Station 1916 July - 1919 June

WO 95/501 55 Casualty Clearing Station 1916 June - 1919 Nov

These are the records & reference numbers held at the National Archive of the 3 CCS at Tincourt during this time. They may contain a record of him.

Hope this is of help

Stuart

[Kathie]

Thank you both very much indeed. I had read though Arthur Dells file at the National Archvies and so knew that he was either with teh 15th Seige Bty or posted elsewhere but did not know how to find out exactly wehre they had been. This information is great. Thank you.

Kathie