alanh Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 n the notes of the first meeting of the National Archives Online Advisory Panel 8 July 2003 The next major digitisation project after the completion of the PCC wills will be to digitise the WW1 Medal Rolls Index (WO 372). Transcription work will commence by the end of this year and the index and images will be gradually loaded over the next few years in alphabetical order. The Panel expressed their approval of this new project and stated that it would be of great benefit to all those interested in this popular series. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 I think everyone at the Forum will agree this is a great piece of news. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 Hmmmmmm - How good will the index actually be - if it is a straight copy of what is at the top of the fiche, then not such good news. Will it include start/end regiments to help you know where to look in the J Smiths? Will it be free to view ? Will they explain that the card is only half the story? - for many men there is more information to had from the roll. If this sounds grudging, it is only because I could have really used this in the last two years - by the time it is complete I'll have finished with looking up large numbers of MiCs? Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 Agree with you here Jock. In addition to the points on access you have mentioned, I have had several instances where medal index cards have not indicated the award of a silver war badge (62910 Pte G Kearl MGC is one) or where the soldier was KiA (116057 Pte R J Johnston MGC is one) or that the soldier was awarded a gallentry medal. This information would normally be recorded on the medal roll. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 Yeah - I'm trying hard to be positive about this but given the debacle that was the 1901 Census on-line I do wonder ..... How much user consultation will there be in designing this ? Do any of the non-PRO types on the advisory panel actually come from the WW1/medalist 'community' ? Who will do the indexing ? Not a job I would fancy, not one I can imagine the PRO paying a lot for. I'm not sure that any of this matters too much to the folk who are regular visitors to Kew, assuming they don't bin the fiche when the on-lining is complete - or flog it off. It would be nice to look up a MiC without a 4 hour round journey but I'm going to be going to Kew for lots of other reasons anyway. I do think it could almost be a retrograde step for some folk who are simply trying to find a relative. It will be very easy to believe that no records exist because you can't find them on computer - if you're actually there you might be tempted to range more widely through the records. In my experience on-line data is easier to access but searching becomes more difficult because you're driven down the search techniques imposed on you by the system. IT doesn't cope with lateral thinking. I wonder what the download times over a dial-up will be? Will each image be a single fiche? - don't really fancy trying to read something containing 360 cards on the 60 x 80 pixel screen that is all I can afford. I think I've got my Victor Meldrew head on tonight. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 Plus........you do a search for granddad and find no MIC, so you give up as no records exist. However he was an HS man and his file is in WO 363! But you will never find it as you don't make the journey to the PRO. There seem to be quite a few pitfalls Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 I think everyone at the Forum will agree this is a great piece of news. OK maybe I didn't hit the nail quite on the head with that one Maybe I was a bus ride away from the nail when I swung my hammer Didn't stop to think about any of the issues raised by Ian & Jock who I know are Veterans down at Kew. The O'Brien boy has made a berk of himself again......... I think silence is the best policy on this subject for me now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 On a positive note, there are some horrendous mis-sorts that will be re-sorted. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanh Posted 3 September , 2003 Author Share Posted 3 September , 2003 This is the full text of thenotes from the advisory board meeting added this other piece from further down the meeting note that I missed at first glance, wonder how long this will take them Alan 7.13 Emma Allen informed the Panel that the next major digitisation project after the completion of the PCC wills will be to digitise the WW1 Medal Rolls Index (WO 372). Transcription work will commence by the end of this year and the index and images will be gradually loaded over the next few years in alphabetical order. 7.14 The Panel expressed their approval of this new project and stated that it would be of great benefit to all those interested in this popular series. Else Churchill asked if the WO 372 name card would be keyed in. Alison Webster advised that the fiche would be digitised. 24 Richard Ratcliffe enquired if not only the WW1 Medal Rolls Index (WO 372) but also the First World Soldiers’ papers (WO 363 and WO 364) could be linked so that users could link and connect between the two series. Alison Webster stated that this would hopefully be the case, perhaps using regimental numbers as the cross-identifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 Didn't stop to think about any of the issues raised by Ian & Jock who I know are Veterans down at Kew. The O'Brien boy has made a berk of himself again......... I think silence is the best policy on this subject for me now Will, On these two points: 1. I can't speak for JB but I would best describe myself as an 'enthusiastic amateur' - the true veterans are people like Tom Tulloch-Marshall who use the PRO to making their living. 2. You are hardly a berk - I think the digitalisation of records is a forward step for the amateur researcher, BUT, there are pitfalls as I and JB have said. I am sure others, perhaps the real veterans or everyday users, as they probably like to be described, will have a view on the matter. All the best - Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 24 Richard Ratcliffe enquired if not only the WW1 Medal Rolls Index (WO 372) but also the First World Soldiers’ papers (WO 363 and WO 364) could be linked so that users could link and connect between the two series. Alison Webster stated that this would hopefully be the case, perhaps using regimental numbers as the cross-identifier. OK but what happens to the papers where a regimental number is not identifiable on the record? What about the records where the soldier served in more than one regiment/corps and the PRO's title page specifies a regiment/corps with the number from another? Again what about John Smiths? Will there be an effort to combine WO 363 with the WO 363 Missorts? What about files duplicated in WO 363 & WO 364? Just a few points for discussion? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 Maybe we could offer wish lists / advice to help them get it right Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 3 September , 2003 Share Posted 3 September , 2003 Will, Like Ian, I don't think I'm a veteran - definitely amateur, and some days not that enthusiastic. I just a very a jaundiced view about this sort of project. On the surface it looks good, not only does it give folk remote access to the MICs but it meets all sort of PRO aims of making records available on line. The problem is in the execution - if the indexing isn't done correctly the thing is actually worse than useless because it will return false negatives. However you cut it, somebody is going to have to sit down and create the index - and I suspect that will be lowest bidder. Michael, you're right - no good sitting round just bashing your gums. I'll certainly be asking the PRO for more detail and will let them know what I think. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 11 September , 2003 Share Posted 11 September , 2003 The problem is in the execution - if the indexing isn't done correctly the thing is actually worse than useless because it will return false negatives. However you cut it, somebody is going to have to sit down and create the index - and I suspect that will be lowest bidder. Just catching up on what I missed last week.. As an enthusiastic amateur this is potentially a very useful development, not least because I potentially have several thousand MICs to look up. Hopefully I will be able to get a lot more done from home. The link to WO 363/364 would be particularly great. However, I think Jock and Ian are spot on with the many pitfalls. The thought of this being done by the lowest bidder who is staffed by people who probably don't understand what they are dealing with fills me with unease. My head is already spinning with the problems of building an index. Linking MIC cards to the right part of WO 363/364 (where a service record exists) will be a massive job. I think it will take longer to do this, and get it right, than merely digitising the MICs which is probably the easiest bit of the whole exercise. The third part of the transcript suggests that the PRO may not have thought through the many complex issues involved - can we follow up on Michael's idea to help them get it right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 11 September , 2003 Share Posted 11 September , 2003 I was told today (by a professional researcher not by the PRO) that - Indexing (of 'A's) starts in October You can search the index for free - this will be name, rank, number, regiment. You can then view an image of the MIC. The PRO are currently deciding the charge to view an image - my man says somewhere between £3 and £4. I believe this to be a reliable report but does anybody have the word from the horse's mouth ? I've got 400 left to do for the 5th Seaforth - I shan't be doing them on line. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 12 September , 2003 Share Posted 12 September , 2003 You can search the index for free - this will be name, rank, number, regiment. free index searching is a start, and will save some time, but: full names so that we can sort John Albert Smith from James Alfred Smith? acting, temporary, substantive? just one number, when most have 2 or 3? just one regiment? I have men who have been with up to seven. Many will need at least two if they for example appear on the 1914/15 Roll in one regt and the BWM&VM Roll of another. I'm still as uneasy as you are. If you are looking for yr Gdad John Smith who you know from family history enlisted in the Royal Blankshires but cant find him will you know to, say, look at those in the Labour Corps? The PRO are currently deciding the charge to view an image - my man says somewhere between £3 and £4. JB - I'll see you in the PRO at this price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 12 September , 2003 Share Posted 12 September , 2003 I presume that there's a backup copy of the films and that they won't be removing the set from the PRO to do the scanning. Its a shame the originals do not exist because apparently on the back of the cards was written the recipient's address ! Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 12 September , 2003 Share Posted 12 September , 2003 I presume that there's a backup copy of the films and that they won't be removing the set from the PRO to do the scanning. Its a shame the originals do not exist because apparently on the back of the cards was written the recipient's address ! Mick Mick, There's something I didn't know, but it seems logical as they were medal index cards. What happened to the original medal index cards? Regards - Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 12 September , 2003 Share Posted 12 September , 2003 Ian I got the info from Joe (Promenade). I believe he said that they were thrown away. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 12 September , 2003 Share Posted 12 September , 2003 Michael, Joe (Promenade) told me there recently were spare sets of fiche - in fact, the PRO was actually selling sets at one point, maybe they still do. Charles, don't know any more about the index but, like you, I hope they will index all regt/number entries for an individual. That in itself would be very useful e.g. being able to pull all Seaforths with 6-digit numbers starting 24 would probably turn up a lot of guys I've missed because they ain't on the Seaforth BWM/VM roll. But I'm not holding my breath. Properly constructed the index could actually be be an extremely powerful research tool - effectively a nominal roll of the British Army (stand fast HS men, etc). I still wonder how useful this will be to folk who are simply trying to do a bit of family history - it will need a lot of support material so that folk understand exactly what they are seeing. JB JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 12 September , 2003 Share Posted 12 September , 2003 I do think it could almost be a retrograde step for some folk who are simply trying to find a relative. It will be very easy to believe that no records exist because you can't find them on computer - if you're actually there you might be tempted to range more widely through the records. In my experience on-line data is easier to access but searching becomes more difficult because you're driven down the search techniques imposed on you by the system. IT doesn't cope with lateral thinking. etc, etc, etc ............... agreed. Cant pass judgement on this project until it comes on-line, but I've been promised a preview and will probably ( joke !) have something to say about it then - regardless of whether anyone wants to listen or not (at NA that is). - Have been told that the on-line access will be free and the charge for a print of the card will most likely be £3, and the database will be searchable using number / name / unit etc etc. - So far so good. Only thing is, - NA users will have noticed the disappearance of one whole set of paper catalogues already, and a second set due to go this month (ok - a fair chunk to my house, but someone's got to do it ) - leaving just one printed catalogue for the entire building. - Why ? - because we dont need them anymore, because we now have God's gift to the NA - the all-singing all-dancing "Procat" on-line catalogue. ........................... Sorry, did I say "Procat" ? - I meant to say Chocolate Teapot, because that's how much good it is for many of the basic searches required for WW1 research. For example - want to find a Brigade Trench Mortar Battery ? - paper lists, easy - go to the listing under the relevant Brigade and there it is, "Brigade Trench Mortar Battery", couldnt be simpler. Now try to find that TMB using a word search in Procat - and you will get - a huge list of file references for "Brigade Trench Mortar Battery" - every TMB in the whole database, so you dont have a clue whch one is the one you are looking for. That happens for no end of "types" of unit, quite simply because the "inventors" of Procat never actually use the records, never thought the process through, and told the people typing in the data to type exactly what is shown on the printed lists. On paper, with a Brigade, Division, Corps or Army reference at the top of the page it all makes sense - but let a computor dork loose on it and it becomes complete nonsense. (Try finding "AIR 1" RFC / RAF Squadron Record Books in Procat, or .................. etc). So, going back to the medal record cards - I can only guess until I actually see it, but I understand that the data input is being done in the Far East - I wonder how many Malasian typists are going to know that when a medal card shows "Sco Rif" it means Scottish Rifles, - or what's meant by RI Fus, RI Rif, Middx R, Camerons, A&S High, RD Fus, Lincs, LN Lanc, N Staffs, Wilts, etc etc ? ---- Never mind the typists, how many people accessing this on-line are going to be completely baffled when they cant find grandad when they feed in his name and "Royal Irish Rifles" - because the software can only search for exactly what its been told to search for and the card shows "RI Rif" - or grandad was called William and the card shows "Wm", or his medals are numbered S/1234 and the card shows "1234" and nothing else (very common), or ... And as has already been pointed out, what good is the card without the medal rolls ? - and what good is all of it without an explanation - how many people in the average bus queue could understand what a mic and the rolls are actually telling them ? Maybe its going to be of some use to those who already understand how mics "work", but other than that - we'll just have to wait and see. Regards - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now