Guest Greg Wrapson Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 A chap I am interested in served throughout WW1 as a Lieutenant. I have not yet checked his complete service record, so I imagine it is possible that he may have had temporary promotion at some time, but his demob paper certainly shows him as still a Lieut. He became quite well known after the War, and was always accorded the title 'Major'. Can anyone tell me please whether there were any rules or conventions about using service ranks in civilian life? Or is there another explanation of this apparent contradiction please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Rank above Captain was I believe normal practice to use in Civilian life as a form of address.However if your man never actually reached the dizzy heights of Major,but was only a Lieutenant{possibly he was Major in the HG/Cadet Force} then possibly the appendage was more out of affection than actual rank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 That`s what I thought, but I`ve come across a number of ex-cavalrymen who called themselves "captain" in civvy life. Like Mark Phillips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Rank above Captain was I believe normal practice to use in Civilian life as a form of address. Was the ex-fourth Prime Minister of Northern Ireland the exception that proves the rule? It always struck me as odd when he was mentioned as "Captain Terence O'Neill" in the news. It just occurred to me that, maybe, he was a Captain in the Royal Navy? So, I looked it up and found that he was in the Irish Guards in WW2. http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wiki...nce_O'Neill Beppo Sapone - Lance Jack in the ACF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Historically, wasn`t a guards officer ranked level with one rank above in the line regiments? Or have I read too much Bernard Cornwell? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 I believe there is a convention for regular officers, but not sure it applies to war service only. Officers up to and including Captain are technically all subalterns and strictly speaking they are Misters, although this is not usually applied to captains. For field officers and above (from Major upwards), I understand that on retirement they are permitted to use one rank above their last service rank as an honorific. But whether you choose to refer to them by such titles is really up to you I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 What about Captain Peacock in "Are You Being Served"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Ciaran, In one episode it turns out that Capt Peacock was only a Corporal My Grandfather did service in WW2 and reached the heady heights of Acting Captain, but he never used it post-war. He even declined his medals saying that he never deserved them as he never left the UK. Needless to say, I've now got his service history and medals Les. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Crame Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 I was under the impression it was Major / Squadron Leader or above who could retain rank as their title, but I am not certain. My Grandfather (a Captain) did not agree with peoiple using their rank once out of the forces. I believe correct would be (example): Major John Smith (Army) Retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Just remembered..... my uncle left the RAF about 10 years ago.... he now goes by the (full) title of "Wing Co. A Turner MBE (retired)". A bit of a mouthful, but looks impressive on headed notepaper. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Officers up to and including Captain are technically all subalterns and strictly speaking they are Misters, although this is not usually applied to captains. Fascinating: I understood Captains were a category of their own. I do not dispute that you are right, but I would like, as it were, chapter and verse. OED says subalterns are below Captains, for example. And, if you know, can you also solve the vexed question of Brigadier: is he the senior field officer, because he certainly is not a General officer? OED supports this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 I remember we had a teacher at school who's name was Squadron Leader Gilbert. Needless to say we all used to mimic German pilots shouting "Actung Spitfire!" and the like. Heartless gits that we were! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 This article indicates that majors and above retain rank on retirement. Phil B http://www.dca.gov.uk/dept/titles.htm#part13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Wrapson Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this for your help. It looks like the 'Major' was only a courtesy title, but for my money anyone who served throughout the Great War was quite entitled to a simple courtesy like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 I believe that US President Wilson had a Col House as Chief Adviser who had never held military rank. "Colonel" was an honorary title bestowed on local worthies, particularly in the Southern states. I`m not sure who bestowed it, perhaps self-bestowed! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Crame Posted 21 January , 2006 Share Posted 21 January , 2006 Colonel Saunders slaughtered more chickens at the Battle of Kentucky than anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 What about Captain W E Johns of Biggles fame; it's some years since I read his biography, but I recall there was a suggestion he had only been a lieutenant in the RFC, his main claim to fame being the recruiting officer when T E Lawrence enlisted in the RAF. Moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 I have a friend who, becoming annoyed by correspondence from a 'Lt Cdr RN [Rtd]' squelched him by signing, as in truth he was, 'JT RAF [Rtd], having been a junior technician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 The Officer rank system certainly in the army is the same whether you are Guards or other. I have never heard of the adoption of the next rank up retirement i know of a few people who have and I know a number of ex Subalterns who went off to the TA or Army cadets and are now Majors etc. As to Brigadier it is a one star rank so first run of the General Staff in days gone by it was the Brigadier General rank. I take the view that any one puting Captain (Retired) on their stationery for any thing other than Regimental reasons is being pompous unless he is Naval. Cheers. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 ................ Can anyone tell me please whether there were any rules or conventions about using service ranks in civilian life? Or is there another explanation of this apparent contradiction please? There was a time when any kind of title or rank would have been a social asset. To the people who cared, it was very important. It was all part of the rich social tapestry known as etiquette or snobbery. It still lingers in the darker corners of public life. T. Rutherford BH (Calcutta) failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 --><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob B @ Jan 22 2006, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quote I take the view that any one puting Captain (Retired) on their stationery for any thing other than Regimental reasons is being pompous unless he is Naval. Cheers. Rob Remember Colonel Square, the retired officer from Dad's Army? Didn't this minor character end up as "Corporal Colonel Square"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 --><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob B @ Jan 22 2006, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The Officer rank system certainly in the army is the same whether you are Guards or other. I have never heard of the adoption of the next rank up retirement i know of a few people who have and I know a number of ex Subalterns who went off to the TA or Army cadets and are now Majors etc. As to Brigadier it is a one star rank so first run of the General Staff in days gone by it was the Brigadier General rank. Rob I am well aware that our American cousins have Brigadier Generals, and top-off Field rank with full colonel. But when we dropped the BGs in 1920 in favour of two types of Colonel, it was for a good reason, in that a Brigadier had ceased to be 'in General charge' of an all-arms unit, Brigades being [with the exception of elements attached such as Sigs, RAMC etc] one arm; infantry, cavalry or indeed artillery. When 'Brigadier' reintroduced in 1928, the 'General' was left out for a reason. As for Guards, 'is' may be true, but 'was' would not be true. I still await definitive input regarding post 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jossman Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 Major-General Sir Percy Cleghorn Stanley Hobart is an example of a General Officer serving as a Home Guard Corporal during the early part of the Second World War. He was subsequently brought out of retirement and his inventions named "Hobart's Funnies" were instrumental in the success of D-Day. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Hobart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 If I remember correctly, Field Marshals, Admiral of the Fleet and Air Marshals do not retire, they are kept on the Active List till they die, hence as a serving Officer they do not pay death duties. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Crame Posted 22 January , 2006 Share Posted 22 January , 2006 It's a pity, I could be Mark Crame, Pvt (Retd). I did very well, I retained my rank for six years! The Belgian Air Force have Brigade Generals. I'm not sure if the chap I know has (Rtd) after it or not, I just call him Albert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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