Machine Gun Corps

[PPCLI]

Hello everyone,

I have read the information given on the Machine Gun Corps on The Long, Long Trail, but I'm no further forward in working out the original numerical composition of a Machine Gun Infantry Company.

Ultimately, I would like to work out the original members of the 155th Machine Gun Coy.; I have a preliminary batch of MGC regt. nos. that I believe corresponds to men serving within battalions of the 155th Brigade, but was hoping to get a definitive answer as to the number of men (and officers) that would constitute this (and other) MG Coys. on their formation in early 1916.

Anyone got any numbers for the initial quotas of officers, men and guns per Machine Gun Company?

Thanks,

Stuart

[jhill]

Here is a snippet from the War Diary of the 7th Canadian Machine Gun Company on its formation in April 1916 (I hope I have not committed too many transcription errors!). The establishment noted is presumably the same as those in the rest of the B.E.F. at that time. In the event, Battalions were loath to give up their machine gunners, so its seems most of the personnel came direct from England. (Your milage may vary!)

April 1916

Organization.

The formation of Brigade Machine Gun Companies

was authorized by Special Army Order on October 22nd 1915.

Authority was given for the formation of the 7th

Brigade Machine Gun Coy by the Canadian Corps on March 3rd 1916.

The 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade of the 3rd Canadian

Division comprised.

The Royal Canadian Regiment.

Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry.

42nd Canadian Battalion. Royal Highlanders of Canada.

49th Canadian Battalion. Edmonton Regiment.

The Brigade was commanded by Brigadier General

F.O.W. Loomis D.S.O.

The scheme of organization was that Lewis Guns

would replace the Machine Guns in the Battalions and that

the Battalion Machine Gun Section personnel, transport, and

everything would be withdrawn from their Battalions and

form the Brigade Machine Gun Company.

This however was modified and drafts from England

were sent with a nucleus of the Battalion Machine Gunners

to the Brigade Machine Gun Company the exact proportion

being left to the discretion of the Brigadiers.

The Brigade Machine Gun officer automatically

commanded the Machine Gun Company.

The Company was divided into Headquarters

and four sections, with the following establishment.

Major or Captain

8 Subalterns.

1 Company Quartermaster Sergeant.

1 Transport Sergeant.

8 Sergeants.

8 Corporals.

1 Artificer.

1 Shoeing Smith.

4 Signallers.

8 Scouts.

8 Range Takers.

1 Storeman.

2 Cooks.

9 Batmen.

22 Drivers.

64 Gunners.

2 R.A.M.C. attached.

1 A.S.C. attached.

9 Riding horses.

43 Light draugh horses.

2 Heavy draugh horses.

4 Bicycles.

12 G.S. Limbered Wagons.

1 Cooks Cart.

1 G.S. Wagon.

A Captain or Lieutenant 2nd in Command with

batman and horse was added.

And a saddler was added on April 15th 1916.

[PPCLI]

Hi James,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply - the Canadians to the rescue, yet again!

So, discounting officers and the saddler who was a slightly later addition, a MG Coy. required 138 NCOs and soldiers to form a complete functioning unit. I have found a batch of men that fit w.r.t. regiments and they total 128; MGC regt. nos. ranging from 56247 to 56380. Just either side of this batch are ex-Manchester Regt. and East Kent (and Yeomanry) men. I'm not sure how they would fit into the equation, except that there were battalions of these regiments based in Egypt in early 1916 where the 52nd Division were regrouping after Gallipoli. I expected that after the 155th MG Coy. that the next set of numbers (56400s) would have belonged to the 156th MG Coy. and would have been ex-Royal Scots and Scottish Rifles, but it does not appear to work like that.

Perhaps the 1915 Star MGC medal roll is grouped by Coy. and I can find out that way - perhaps I'm hoping for too much! Maybe I can find out from our Manchester and Buffs experts to which MG Coy. these men were transferred.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Michael]

Stuart

I'm working my way through the Buffs rolls and have completed the 1914/15 star rolls. These don't indicate men who transferred to other untis unless they were commissioned. There are only 2 commissioned into the MGC; Pte Durban and Cpl Elworthy, both of whom had previous service in the West Kent Yeomanry and 10th Buffs.

I haven't got up to the 10th Buffs (ex yeomanry) in the BWM VM rolls but if you've got any Buffs numbers I'll look them up to see if there are any patterns with adjacent numbers.

Mick

[PPCLI]

I'm working my way through the Buffs rolls and have completed the 1914/15 star rolls.

Hi Mick,

Time-consuming research, isn't it? I've limited my work to one battalion, but that has taken long enough already.

I haven't got up to the 10th Buffs (ex yeomanry) in the BWM VM rolls but if you've got any Buffs numbers I'll look them up to see if there are any patterns with adjacent numbers.

Here are some of the East Kent Regiment men (in MGC order: 56381-56395, no 56390) who turn up at the end of the 155th Brigade soldiers.

9178, McDermott, Frederick J

5020, Knott, Henry J

9081, Hogben, Albert J

10161, Humphreys, Sidney

8855, Hart, Thomas

5891, Giles, William G

9895, Fruin, Joseph E

5946, Fisher, Albert R

10109, Belsey, Edward J

10550, Williams, Henry H

8903, Wells, Charles E

10213, Vidler, William J

10180, Sims, Bert

10768, Post, Edward G

Thanks for the offer. In return, the next time I'm at the National Archives I can photograph the relevant MGC roll pages for the Buffs men while I'm doing my own stuff.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Charles Fair]

Perhaps the 1915 Star MGC medal roll is grouped by Coy. and I can find out that way - perhaps I'm hoping for too much! Maybe I can find out from our Manchester and Buffs experts to which MG Coy. these men were transferred.

Stuart, I definitely recommend spending some time on the 15 Star Rolls for the MGC. There are 6 volumes, and I went through them looking for men who had previously served in the 19th London Regt. It was notable that the Roll was (initially at least) organised roughly by Brigade and Division. For example:

* Men who had previously served in 141 Bde i.e. 17, 18, 19 and 20 Londons were grouped together. The 19th London men were allocated an initial block of consecutive MGC numbers from 21162 to about 21189.

* Similarly men who had served in 118 Bde (1/1 Hertfordshires, 1/1 Cambridgeshires) were also grouped together.

The inital blocks seemed to have about 15-20 men per bn. Other men who had served in these bns were scattered in ones and twos in the other volumes.

For info here is the monthly fighting strength of 141 Bde MG Coy from Feb 1916 when the figures start until Feb 1918 after which they went into 47 Bn MGC:

Fighting strength

Officers ORs

Feb-16 6 143

Mar-16 7 142

Apr-16 7 140

May-16 8 154

Jun-16 11 146

Jul-16 missing

Aug-16 9 174

Sep-16 7 161

Oct-16 9 153

Nov-16 10 177

Dec-16 10 168

Jan-17 11 173

Feb-17 12 169

Mar-17 11 173

Apr-17 11 178

May-17 11 167

Jun-17 12 178

Jul-17 11 168

Aug-17 11 170

Sep-17 10 174

Oct-17 10 190

Nov-17 7 111

Dec-17 missing

Jan-18 10 166

Feb-18 8 169

Source: 47 Div A&Q War Diary WO 95 2706 and 2707

Charles

[PPCLI]

Stuart, I definitely recommend spending some time on the 15 Star Rolls for the MGC. There are 6 volumes, and I went through them looking for men who had previously served in the 19th London Regt. It was notable that the Roll was (initially at least) organised roughly by Brigade and Division.

The inital blocks seemed to have about 15-20 men per bn. Other men who had served in these bns were scattered in ones and twos in the other volumes.

Charles,

Thanks for taking the time to type out the numbers - it will be interesting to see if I can find similar data. Using the battalion that I know best (1/5th KOSB), I have found a block of just over 30 men, and by a process of elimination there is a block of just under 30 of the 1/4th KOSB. As you say, I also found another batch of about a half dozen 1/4th KOSB men with MGC numbers another couple of hundred further along the sequence. It looks like another search will have to be added to my 'to do' list for my next Kew visit!

Do the 15 Star Rolls for the MGC actually state the MG Coy. in which the men served? (I know the Vic/BWM roll does not provide much detail).

Cheers,

Stuart

[JulianB]

Stuart,

There ARE figures for British units too. The series WO/24 has establishment strengths on paper. For the MGC they include October 1915, Aug 1916, Oct 1917 and March 19818 for a Bn. (also squadrons etc ).

Here is the list for August 1916

Machine Gun Company offr OR Tot

(4 sections of 4 Vickers Machine guns) Tot Str. 10 144 154

HQ Major or Captain, Captain or Subaltern, CSM, CQMS,

Transport-Sergeant, Artificer, Shoeing-Smith, Saddler,

4 Signallers (incl 1 Corporal), 8 Range-takers, 8 Scouts,

3 Drivers, 1 Storeman, 2 Cooks, 2 Batmen, 2 Privates RAMC

2 36 38

4 sections, 2 Subalterns, 2 Sergeants, 2 Corporals, 16 Privates, 5

Drivers, 2 Batmen. 8 108 116

[JulianB]

whoops, I was trying to sort out the formatting and accidentally posted last one.

The 'total strength' columns should read offr / soldiers / total; the three made up of the 10 / 144 / 154 and 2 / 36 / 38 and 8 / 108 / 116 sets of figures.

See my post to Charles Fairs topic on battalion strength where I give more detai;ls on the Company that I am studying (yes, even Coy study takes a long time !)

I'd be interested in how your stidy of 155 Coy compares.

best wishes

Julian

[PPCLI]

Hi Julian,

Thank you for your reply - it's always good to know about other people who are doing similar research (sharing sources, resources, tips, etc). I mentioned previously that I have found a batch of about 130 men that will possibly be members of the 155th MG Coy. - if I can get to Kew, I will at least be able to confirm that these men derive from battalions within 155th Brigade. I will get back to you when I have some data to report, but this is not my priority at the moment (when I do manage to get to Kew my time is split between paid research for other people and territorial KOSB men).

It seems to me that researching a MG Coy. poses additional difficulties; the MGC medal rolls don't appear to give the specific unit details found in infantry rolls. Have I understood this correctly? For example, another half dozen KOSB men have MGC numbers another couple of hundred further along the sequence; how would I prove that they joined the 155th MG Coy.? Maybe I won't be able to....

Cheers,

Stuart

[Michael]

Stuart

I've had a look at the Buffs guys. They are all either regulars or special reservists. Because they transferred from the Buffs their names do not appear in the medal rolls. I've had a look at adjacent numebrs and there doesn't seem to be any patterns emerging.

I'm off to Kew either this week or next. Can you tell me whether the Buffs all appear together in the MGC rolls and if so, what is the reference ?

[PPCLI]

I'm off to Kew either this week or next. Can you tell me whether the Buffs all appear together in the MGC rolls and if so, what is the reference ?

Hi Mick,

Thanks for checking your records. I'm in a similar position; I have a lot of the territorial KOSB medal rolls, but they're not much help with men who were transferred to other units. It can be quite time-consuming trying to track down medal roll entries for all these 'strays', but the MGC strays are perhaps the easiest to collect because most of the men were transferred in one block. The information I have suggests that these men will all be listed consecutively in one volume of the MGC medal rolls (in both 1915 Star and BWM/Vic rolls). I do not have the National Archives WO 329 reference, just the old references:

1915 Star: MGC/9 C4 (approx. page 919 for Buffs), which is somewhere within WO 329/2826-2833!

BWM/Vic: MGC/101 B37 (approx. page 3354)

On past experience I would assume that the 1915 Star will be the more informative. I'm trying to determine to which MG Coy. they were transferred, which, in turn, will help me delimit the 155th MG Coy. men in the MGC sequence of regt. numbers. I don't know if this is going to be possible, considering that the MGC rolls probably don't give specific unit details (I'm not sure about this, but if you get a chance to look at them you'll before I do!).

If you get the chance, then thanks for looking - but at least you will be able to record all your Buffs men at the same time.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Michael]

Stuart

I can get the WO329 references using the books at Kew.

Having spent the past 23 years in engineering I do like to see logic and sequences. Doing this Buffs database has been very frustrating for me because although there is a sequence in the distribution of numbers, there are the odd individuals who defy all logic.

Maybe I should try and develop the other half of my brain which would allow me to gloss over the irregularities!

I'll let you know what I find at the NA

Mick