Denise Ford Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 It's been a while since I've been on here, but I know you guys can help me!! I've discovered my great grandfather James English Grace (b 1898) had a medal card for WWI. According to family folklore, Grandad (as I call him) was a conciencious objector. Certainly we believe in WWII he was an ambulance man - we'd already heard that because he was a conciencious objector - but then we found his army discharge papers - which showed he actually had "flat feet" (in reality he had 6 toes on each foot so this makes sense to us). So this WWI record is an even greater shock - as yet I'm not 100% certain it's right - so firstly I need to prove it - but I already know the chances of me finding his records in the burnt series are remote but I do plan to try looking if I can - and I figured you guys could tell me where he'd been during his service. There is no note of his service in action - so not sure he ever went anywhere - but find that hard to believe during the war years. So far I have this info: James English Grace, 22nd London Regiment, Reg No 2459, Rank Private, Cause of discharge: Sick Para 392.IIICC (i think!), Action Taken: List TP/573 (no idea what that means!) Can anyone help me? Thank you all in anticipation! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Hi, Denise. Long time no see. Thought you'd abandoned us! Let's see: Action taken and the references "List TP/573" refer to the Rolls for the Silver War Badge. These books will tell you when he enlisted, when he was discharged, and perhaps why (sometimesjust W for wounded or S for sick, which can include being gassed) Seems to still have his old TF number (pre-1917) so probably discharged before then. Then again, looking at the King's Regulation 392 it states: (iii) Not being likely to become an efficient soldier (a ) Recruit rejected both by medical officer and approving officer (b ) Recruit passed by medical officer, but rejected by a recruiting officer stationed away from the headquarters of the recruiting area, or by approving officer (c ) Recruit within three months of enlistment considered unfit for service http://www.1914-1918.net/discharged.htm Flat feet! Did you find a Medal Index Card? I doubt that he got overseas if discharged within 3 months of enlistment. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 18 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Hi Steve!! I knew you'd come up trumps with something. The discharge card says that grandad (if it is him!) enlisted in 1914 but wasn't discharged until Feb 1916 - that seems like a hell of a long time to decide he was unfit to be a soldier - but again the medical reasons would make sense if his WWII records are to be believed... and as I said before we know he had 12 toes - though I'd be surprised if the medics never noticed this on entry during WWI... I'm right in thinking that 22nd Ldn is also a TA battalion, aren't I? The family is from South London so I would presume that this fits in too. With regard to a medal card index - we only found a James E - but his regt is listed as RFA - and as there appears to be a mistranscription on another medal card we found I suspect that this James E is actually John E and not grandad. Can't find anything else at the mo. We have no photos of grandad during this period so uniform ID is impossible - in fact he refused to talk about either war, saying the past is the past - hence the reason I think the family assumed his service in the ambulance service was to get out of service (how sad is that?). What I do know is that the family business of flour haulage was a reserved occupation - the family had Shire horses to haul the flour and Grandad had working knowledge of horsemanship so could well have been employed not just as a footsoldier but perhaps with horses? Would 22nd have had such a division? Sorry I realise yet again I'm more full of questions than I am answers...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Denise I don't know anything about the 22nd London Regiment other than it was a Territorial Battalion, Grandad could have served in either the 1/22nd or 2/22nd (County of London) Battalion TF (The Queen's). List TP/573 is the Army Medal Office reference for the award of the Silver War badge and can be translated into a listing in the relevant SWB Roll held at the National Archives, Kew. This listing will give you such details as his date of enlistment, reason and date of discharge, unit discharged from etc., most of which you have already. Interestingly you don't mention any medal references which suggests that you have a basic SWB MIC which lists the award of the SWB only. There is sometimes another MIC for the soldier detailing his Star, BWM and Victory Medal awards but in this instance I can't see that one exists unless it's under a different regiment so this would suggest that he never left these shores to qualify for any medals. Hope this helps Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 ........and Steve beats me to it as I type Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Hmmm. Details on the SWB card don't seem to tally with the King's Regulation paragraph quoted. Perhaps the Medal Rolls will give more information. There is a column in them for "Did the soldier serve overseas?" so that might help! There were horses around the Infantry divisions but they weren't often the responsibilty of Infantry men, at least not at the Front. If he served in the UK he might have had a bit more contact with horses. As did evryone back then, of course! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 18 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Hi Steve(2!) Thanks for that - SWB would confirm the sickness too I guess then? Steve (1) Why doesn't the SWB card tally with the discharge? (as mentioned above... doesn't SWB get awarded to the sick and injured or have i lost the plot with that?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Denise Just a thought, I could be completely off track here but as I understand it in 1914 a Territorial Soldier had to volunteer to serve overseas, if he gave no such undertaking then he would be placed on home service only. Could this be where the 'Conscientious Objection' comes from? This restriction on the Territorials was removed with the introduction of conscription in 1916 which could possibly explain why Grandad was finally deemed unfit for service. As I said, just a thought. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Denise SWB details DO agree with the Discharge details, but not with the one Steve (1) quoted : SWB states KR.392 IIICC = Recruits with more than three months service considered unfit for further military service. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 18 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Highly possible, Steve. I'm afraid Grandad's unwillingness to tell us anything and our lack of pressing for info before he died doesn't really give us any clues. It seems such a shame that he was labelled that way when it doesn't appear to have been the case at all - not that serving in the UK in WWI would really have achieved much, I'd have thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Drat! Definitely need new glasses! Happened last week as well! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 18 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2006 You're right... that doesn't make sense at all, does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Steve/Denise SWB states KR.392 IIICC = Recruits with more than three months service considered unfit for further military service. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Sorry Denise, just edited my last post that compounded my error. Listen to the OTHER Steve. HE knows what he's doing! Steve, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Listen to the OTHER Steve. HE knows what he's doing! That's a first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 18 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Ah!!! NOW it makes sense!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Anyway, Seems to point towards service in the UK. A check to that SWB Roll book to confirm whether or not he served overseas will either bring things to a close, or set you searching further. He still may have a Service Record, even if only in the UK. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 18 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2006 National Archives here I come, then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 18 January , 2006 Share Posted 18 January , 2006 Denise, As Steve suggests, the only way to confirm any of this is to check the SWB Roll and also to see if his service record exists. Happy Hunting Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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