AIF & CEF

[Jonathan Saunders]

As a result of researching locally born men that died during the Great War, I have several that served with the AIF or CEF. In some instances these had former service in the British army or Royal Navy.

As a matter of interest does anyone have any figures as to what percentage of the first CEF and original AIF were British born? ... or similar percentages for all those from these forces that served in a war theatre?

I understand the original Princess Patricia's were all former British army, and originally served as a British unit before transferring to the CEF.

[Neil Burns]

Hi,

I know mordac posted this info for the CEF recently I just can't remember the thread. Try searching his postings. He had it broken out for 1914, 1915-18 and total of all.

Neil

[mordac]

I understand the original Princess Patricia's were all former British army, and originally served as a British unit before transferring to the CEF.

Hi Signals:

Most (but not all) members of the original contingent of the PPCLI were British born. Because of their previous military experience they were the first battalion to leave Canada on September 27, 1914 aboard the Royal George. The PPCLI joined the 80th Brigade, arrived in France on December 21, 1914 and they replaced the French 53rd Regiment in the line on January 6, 1915. They became part of the 3rd Canadian Division (7th Infantry Brigade) on November 8, 1915.

Here's the link for the CEF enlistment statistics by country of birth.

Garth

[Jonathan Saunders]

Thanks to both of you for replies on Canadian forces.

[Broznitsky]

original Princess Patricia's were all former British army, and originally served as a British unit before transferring to the CEF.

From a previous thread: Some more facts (from ppcli.com):

"Only 10% of the "Original" Patricia's were of Canadian birth.

Princess Patricia, for whom the Regiment was named, was granddaughter of Queen Victoria, and Daughter of the Duke of Connaught, the Governor-General of Canada.

When the Regiment was inspected by Colonel Hughes in Ottawa before its departure for Europe, there were 545 war medals being worn by the troops.

By August 19th 1,098 ranks had been accepted from 3,000 applicants, and of them 1,049 had seen previous service throughout the British Empire. It is said that all but one unit in the British Army was in the ranks of the new Regiment, as well as men from the Royal Navy and Marines."

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Signals

I hope you do not mind if I add my own question to this thread.

There are lots of men in the Shropshire Absent Voters Lists, who served with Australian and Canadian units, also two or three served with the Yanks.

Here is an example of one - Pte. Arthur Painter of Batchcote, Leebotwood 10553 1st Canadian Contingent.

Does anyone known if these lads were attached to other countries units or could they chose another countries unit on enlistment, that is in the early days when they had a choice.

Thanks

Annette

[Broznitsky]

Annette, Arthur Painter enlisted at Valcartier, Quebec on September 22, 1914, into 4 Battery. He had thus travelled to Canada some time earlier (he was a miner).

I have never heard of men enlisting into other country's units, in their own country. I don't see how it would be possible. (If I understand your question correctly ? )

Peter

[mordac]

Does anyone known if these lads were attached to other countries units or could they chose another countries unit on enlistment, that is in the early days when they had a choice.

Hi Annette:

This is probably only a partial answer to your question. You didn't need to be a Canadian citizen to join the CEF. There were British, American and Australian citizens (to name a few) who joined the CEF. Most were living in Canada at the time, but many Americans traveled north to enlist before the USA entered the war.

There were British born Canadian citizens who chose to return to England and enlist in the BEF rather than the CEF. This mainly happened between 1914-1915. There was also a group of men who were English, but not Canadian citizens. Many of these men had previous experience in the British armed forces and returned home to join the BEF.

Sorry, I don't have any numbers on how many men returned to England to enlist.

Garth

P.S. - I really like your avatar. Can you tell me what it is? It looks like it could be from All Quiet On The Western Front. Thanks

[Broznitsky]

Duguid shows that there were 3,232 British Army reservists in Canada in August 1914. Of these, 153 were serving in the Canadian Permanent Force and were allowed to remain. 2,006 returned to England by the end of August.

He also shows 36 who joined the CEF, and 106 who sailed with the First Contingent. This last statement I don't understand.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Thanks Garth and Peter

From the answers you both gave, it seems that the men (or most of them) in my Absent Voter lists must have been working in Canada and Australia at the time of enlistment.

Garth my Aavatar is a drawing/painting from the cover of All Quiet On The Western Front, it started out as a drawing and ended up as a painting Its a moving image.

Thanks

Annette

[Andrew P]

Hi Signals

In my research on Fremantle men in WW1, quite a few were Brirish Born, though at this stage of my research I can't say what percentage of the total it comes to.

What units of the AIF did your men serve in?

Cheers

Andrew

[Jonathan Saunders]

Andrew,

I have two "Australians", Walter Blackman served with the 4 Battalion having previously spent 12 yrs in the RN and Tom Swan was CSM (and DCM) in 2 MGC, having previously served in one of teh Kent bttns, I think it was the Buffs.

However my interest in percentages was more of a general nature. Do you have any approximate % for Fremantle men ... 20%, 40%?? Do you have any idea how the % would compare with the Canadians given by Mordac ... do you think these would be representative of both nations??

Thanks for yr interest and reply.

[mordac]

Duguid shows that there were 3,232 British Army reservists in Canada in August 1914. Of these, 153 were serving in the Canadian Permanent Force and were allowed to remain.  2,006 returned to England by the end of August.

Hi Broz:

Does this source give any figures for the total number of British born men who decided to return to the UK to enlist? Is there any mention of how many British born men, who became Canadian citizens, where also British army reservists?

Annette - If I understand you correctly, I'm viewing a Burgoyne original. Any chance you could post a larger sized image of the paining? Thanks.

Garth

[Andrew P]

Hi Signals

With an unofficial count I would say that at least 25% of my Fremantle men were British born. Several also had previous service in the RN or infantry

Cheers

Andrew

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Garth

Yes, here it is.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Sorry forgot to add picture

[Jonathan Saunders]

Andrew thanks for yr reply once again.

Annette I meant to say (a couple of days ago now) no problem joining yr question onto this thread.

[munce]

I'm probably being a bit pedantic here, but Garth talks of men being 'Canadian citizens'. Was there such a concept back then? I was under the impression that at that time everyone in the British Empire was a British subject, and that national citizenships for the Dominions only came into force around 1947. If I'm right it begs the question of course of what qualified someone as being 'Canadian' or 'Australian', etc, particularly if they weren't born there. Does anyone know? Perhaps, with travel being more difficult and expensive, once someone arrived in one of the Dominions from eg Britain, they were effectively regarded as settling there and therefore Canadian, or Australian, etc.

[Terry]

Very true. We were all British subjects in 14-18. I recall having quite a debate about the subject on a different website devoted to WW1 aviation history. The question that kept popping up was "Capt.Bloggins was a Canadian/American?British ace". Each country could claim to have the fellow on "their"list of aces.

A great example is Capt.Wilfred Beaver,MC, a 19-victory ace. For years he was listed as Canadian. However in recent times he appears on the US list. The real story is that he was English; came to Canada pre-1914 and settled in Montreal; took part in the war; in the 1920's emigrated to the US, became an American citizen and served in the USAAF in WW2. If anything he should be on the British ace list.

Another pilot on the US list was Capt.Emile Lussier. He was born in Chicago to Canadian parents who moved back to Canada when he was young. He joined the CEF; switched to the air force, and to complicate things, in the 1920's returned to the US. He specifically requested Stuart Taylor, the recognized expert on Canadian flyers in WW1 to place his name on the Canadian list, as that is what he considered himself to be at the time.

Another Canadian, Harold Hartney, went from the CEF to the RFC, became an ace, and in 1917 was assigned to help train US flyers. He later led a US unit to France as a colonel, and remained in America after the war, becoming a US citizen in the 20's. Again, he should be on the Canadian ace list, but is on the US list.

[Guest stevebec]

May be this may help you.

This is from a list of men I did some time ago. It only mentions those soldiers with NOK's living in the Countries mentioned as most embarkation records don't show where someone was born only their personal files. WA was a sort of Frontier state at this time because of Gold mining out at Kalgoolie.

Of the 2314 men embarked with the 10th ALHR from Perth WA.

Soldiers with NOK's shown as being;

UK - 253

Scotland - 35

Ireland - 19

Wales - 13

USA - 3

Canada - 3

NZ - 19

The remainder are shown as living in Australia or in another country but not in numbers that would effect the above list.

But I do believe there is some research that does indicate that British Born Australian Soldiers were high in our early ranks but a lot less in the later grouping.

S.B

[mordac]

I'm probably being a bit pedantic here, but Garth talks of men being 'Canadian citizens'. Was there such a concept back then? I was under the impression that at that time everyone in the British Empire was a British subject, and that national citizenships for the Dominions only came into force around 1947.

Hi munce:

You're quite right, prior to 1947 Canadian citizenship didn't exist. Canadians born in Canada were officially classified as British subjects. On April 2, 1946 an "Act Respecting Citizenship, Naturalization and the Status of Aliens" was introduced in the Canadian House of Commons. When the act was passed, after much debate, the Canadian citizen was born.

Having said that, in 1914 most people born in Canada considered themselves Canadian rather than British. This fact is revealed in many letters, books, and memoirs written by Canadian born service men during the war. These men thought and spoke of themselves as Canadians. This became even more evident when the war ended in 1918. The role of the Canadian Corps in WWI (fighting as a self-contained Canadian only unit) and their achievements during the war further cemented a sense of Canadian identity. Our separation from the mother country started in ernest in 1919 when Canada was given a seat (as a nation) at the Paris Peace Conference.

It's interesting to note, in 1914 Canada became involved in the Great War by default when Great Britain declared war. In 1939, when we were still officially British subjects, there was a full debate in the Canadian House of Commons before Canada declared war and entered WWII of her own free will.

Garth

[munce]

Hi Garth,

What about those British born men who were in Canada when war broke out and joined, for example, the PPCLI? Do we know if they considered themselves more British or Canadian? I suppose there would be a lot of personal differences, but I'd be interested to know how these men saw viewed their identity status.

James

[Geoff S]

Australian Imperial Force

Attestation Paper of Persons Enlisted for Service Abroad.

Question 3.

Are you a natural born British Subject or a Naturalized British Subject? (N.B. - If the latter, papers to be shown.)

The vast majority, including those born in Australia would note simply British or British born. They had no confusion about what nationality they believed they were in 1915, 16. etc.

Cheers

Geoff S

I would agree that approx. 1 out of 4 Australians?/British Subjects who enlisted in the A.I.F were not born in Australia. But of this number - many including the gentlemen who once lived in my street in Sydney, born in Scotland, immigrated to Australia at 3 years old.- died at Poziers in 1916.

I wonder if he considered himself a Scotsman,British Subject or an Australian?

Maybe all of the above!

[Jonathan Saunders]

Steve many thanks. Yr figs indicate about 15% but I would expect this was below the average for the early volunteers. Agree completely that as the war continued less British born Australians would be likely to be volunteering (for the main reason that many probably already had enlisted).

Thanks again.

[mordac]

What about those British born men who were in Canada when war broke out and joined, for example, the PPCLI? Do we know if they considered themselves more British or Canadian? I suppose there would be a lot of personal differences, but I'd be interested to know how these men saw viewed their identity status.

Hi James:

You've asked a couple of thought provoking questions that are hard to quantify. I'll throw out some numbers and thoughts from official histories and let you make the call on how British born men viewed their status.

The PPCLI are a unique battalion in Canadian history. They are the only military unit that was initially privately raised and funded. When the war began in 1914, Canada only had one active regiment in her standing army, the Royal Canadian Regiment. It was believed the war would be over before Canada could send a trained force to the front. So, it was decided to raise a battalion of men with previous military experience to shorten the time required to train the unit.

On August 11, 1914, A. Hamilton Gault started a poster and newspaper recruitment campaign. One of the key points of recruitment stated "Preference will be given to ex-regulars of the Canadian or Imperial Forces; or men who saw service in South Africa." Volume I of the PPCLI's official history also states "Under the conditions of enlistment it was inevitable that nearly all should have been men born in the Old Country: less than 10 per cent of the "Originals" were of Canadian origin; almost 65 per cent were Englishmen, roughly 15 per cent Scots, and 10 per cent Irish." Of course, the figures drastically changed by the end of the war. It's interesting to note, from their official history, that the PPCLI always considered themselves a Canadian, not an Imperial, battalion throughout the war.

Here's another set of numbers you might find interesting. From 1914 - 1919, 228,174 (or 36%) of men in the CEF were British born. Using Canada's WWI mortality rate of 9.28% would mean 206,999 British born men survived the war. When the war ended 22,318 men decided to remain in the UK and not return to Canada. If we can for the sake of argument consider all these men British born, it would mean roughly 11% of these men decided they were British and remained in the UK and 89% decided they were Canadian and returned home to Canada.

Garth

P.S. - As a proud grandfather, I'd like to mention my grandson joined the PPCLI in early July this year. He's in the final stages of his basic training in Quebec.