16th Bn KRRC

[andy1400]

Could anyone tell me what the 16th Bn Kings Royal Rifle Corps were doing on 03/11/1916. I am particularly interested in Rfn Philip Stubbs who was killed in action on this day.

Thank you

Andy

[Steven Broomfield]

100th Bde, 33rd Division. Divisional History comments that the div was in the Line around le Transloy, and was involved in attacks on 'Hazy Trench'. Not too specific, but the conditions were appalling, with the ground impassible: "Men disappeared into the night; one knows not to this day their fate, whether destroyed by shell fire, or swallowed up in the yawning shell holes, stifled with mud and water, gripped and paralysed with cold and wounds."

The 2nd Worcesters were in the same Bde, and their historian comments on the attack made by the battalion and 9 HLI: "Never had the battalion struggled through a worse morass. The laden soldiers sank up to their knees in the mud, hauling out each foot with the utmost difficulty and in many cases losing their boots and putties."

The attack (on the 1st) was a failure - not surprisingly - and on the evening of the 2nd, the 2nd Worcesters were relieved by 16 KRRC. Shell fires was heavy, conditions were awful, so I guess that where Rifleman Stubbs got it. Does he have a known grave?

[gericht 1914]

100th Bde, 33rd Division. Divisional History comments that the div was in the Line around le Transloy, and was involved in attacks on 'Hazy Trench'. ... conditions were appalling...

Steven.

Does the divisional history give the date of those attacks as being on the 3rd November? (I ask, because the "Annals of the KRRC" date it as the 5th November and having taken place at a time that followed several days of fine weather!!! - amazing how sources disagree!)

Dave.

[Steven Broomfield]

Steven.

Does the divisional history give the date of those attacks as being on the 3rd November? (I ask, because the "Annals of the KRRC" date it as the 5th November and having taken place at a time that followed several days of fine weather!!! - amazing how sources disagree!)

Dave.

Dave

The div history is remarkably vague, to be honest, and has some dates that don't tally. However, it gives the dates of the attacks on Hazy Trench as 3rd and 4th November, with a gala "Guy Fawkes" day on the 5th in which the entire division assaulted (and captured) trenches round le Transloy, Lt Bennett of 2nd Worcesters winning a VC.

The Worcesters history is quite clear that the attacks on Hazy (and Boritzka) Trenches took place on the 1st, with zero at 3.30 p.m., and that they were relieved in the evning of the 2nd (by 16 KRRC), with them returning to the Line on the 4th for the big attack on the 5th.

The Suffolks history (1/4th Bn were in 98 Bde) states that a series of attacks were made from 28th October: "minor attackes to gain ground", with the last on the 1st November (presumably the assault mentioned above), with the battalion moving back to hutments on the Montauban-Carnoy road on the 3rd, and to Meaulte on the 5th.

My guess is that Seton-Huthchinson (33rd History) got the dates of the attacks on Hazy Trench wrong, as the Worcesters and Suffolks agree on the 1st. The attack on the 5th can't be argued with, as Bennett got his VC that day, but obviously 98th Bde (or at least the 1/4th Suffolks) weren't involved.

As for the weather, well, it may have been fine, but the conditions certainly weren't; all accounts talk about the awful conditions, and all three books agree that the dead were buried where they fell, and that troops couldn't drag their feet out of the mud (waist high in places), and that helping the wounded was absolutely not possible. The Suffolks mention that it was very wet around the 24th October, when the Battn was in bivouacs round Trones Wood, the Worcesters (on the 30th October) "marched...through rain and heavy mud", and after the attack of the 1st "The survivors waded back to their original line. The failure had been due to the mud and the weather conditions as much as to the enemy's fire."

Well, that's it - looks like accounts agree broadly, but the attack on Hazy was on the 1st, and the major attack on the 5th; the weather obviously was OK for the KRRC, but it rained on everyone else!

Cheers Steve

[rap1943]

Andy

Send me a PM with your email address and I will attach the relevant Vol. of the war diary.

Also in the 16th Btn KRRC Chronicle is this short piece:

Nov 1st

The Battalion remained here (Hog's Back Trench) until it took up its position in the front line,relieving the 2nd Worcester Regiment in Frosty Trench, A and B Companies in the front line, and C and D in support in Ox Trench. The trenches were in a very bad condition, and communication was almost impossible by day. Great difficulty was experienced in getting rations up.

2nd Lieut. C. H. Cork, in command of B company, was wounded on the night 2nd - 3rd.

An Inter-Company relief took place on 4th - 5th. A prisoner was captured almost immediately on completion of relief by D company.

Nov 5th

On 5th November the Battalion took part in a big attack in conjunction with the Fifth French Army on our right and Third Army on our left. The attack was made by C and D Companies. The objective for the Battalion was Hazy Trench.

The attack was very successful, and casualties were comparativelty few. This was mainly due to the example of determination and heroism exhibited by Captain Hon. L. Lindsay, who reorganised and consolidated the line; and also to a new system of barrage adopted, which, instead of being the usual creeping one, was arolling one. Platoons attacked in echelon, immediately the barrage rolled by, hence there was a constant attack on small section of the enemy trench.

Great credit was due to 2nd Lieut. G. H. Cholmondeley, who was the leader of the right platoon which went over in spite of the Battalion immediately on our right failing to attack.

During the attack 1 Officer was killed, 3 wounded. 39 O.R. killed, 113 wounded and 11 missing.

The Battalion was relieved on the night of the 6th - 7th by the second East Lancashires.

Cheers

Bob

[Steven Broomfield]

Interesting, Bob. I take it that's the first use of the rolling barrage in the 33rd Division - interesting from the technical development point of view.

[rap1943]

Sorry Stephen, can't comment on the rolling barrage and its use, I'll do a bit more reading though.

On the issue of the date of the attack on Hazy Trench the Chronicle clearly states that the objective of the attack on the 5th, at least for the 16th Btn, was in fact Hazy Trench. I will read the War Diary when I get home from work to see what it says.

Bob

[Steven Broomfield]

Hi, Bob. Looks like the 33rd History isn't that reliable, which doesn't surprise me as it's author was Seton-Hutchinson, who may have been a good CO of an MG Battalion, but was a pretty unreliable historian. However, I think we all agree that the Suffolks, Worcesters and 60th Historians all agree on the dates!

Can I be cheeky and as if I could have a copy of the War Diary you offered - I'll PM you an address if it's OK. Cheers, Steve

[Simon R]

Just out of interest - was not the 16th KRRC the church lads brigade btn?

[Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson]

Just out of interest - was not the 16th KRRC the church lads brigade btn?

It was. My GGF was in the CLB.

Roland.

[Steven Broomfield]

Yep - raised at Denham, 19.9.14, by Fd Marshall Lord Grenfell (Commandant of the CLB) from past and present members of the CLB.

[rap1943]

Hi Steve

Just send me that PM and I will send you the relevent Volume, and any other that you may be interested in.

Bob