SDGW / MIC - Naval Personnel? Do they exist?

[Mark Crame]

Hi, I have 2 casualties to look up, first is Henry Symonds from Haddiscoe. The only close match I can find is the following Naval person. Toft Montes is Toft Monks, and the next village along from Haddiscoe (and Factory street, lowestoft, is 300 metres from where I live). So, a good bet is this guy, but I cannot be sure. is there a SDGW listing for the Navy? Or an MIC list that escapes me?

Henry Symonds: SYMONDS, HENRY

Initials: H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Engineman

Regiment: Royal Naval Reserve

Unit Text: H.M. Drifter "Golden Rule."

Age: 35

Date of Death: 15/02/1918

Service No: 472ES

Additional information: Son of William and Mary Ann Symonds, of Toft Montes, Haddiscoe, Norwich; husband of Marian Ellen Symonds, of 3, Factory St., Lowestoft.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 31.

Memorial: CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL

The second sailor is:

Name: FLAXMAN, MARCUS BARRY

Initials: M B

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Trimmer

Regiment: Royal Naval Reserve

Unit Text: H.M. Trawler "Loch Ard."

Date of Death: 10/09/1917

Service No: 5046TS

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 27.

Memorial: CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL

Any help in confirming either greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

mark

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

There are MiC for Royal Navy{Not online},but not as far as I know for RNR,& as far as I am aware there are no SDGW equivalent for the RN/RNR/RFR;though I understand the RM have a form of DGW,published in the 1980s

[Ian grant]

Hi Mark,

If you go onto the NA you can search the Service registers for Royal Navy Seamen, and download the image for £3.50 . the link below will take you to the Documents online page, you'll see the Royal Naval Seaman section in the centre of the page. The registers are from 1873 - 1923 and are complete you should find your men no problem. good luck.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/

Regards Ian

[welshdoc]

Mark the RNR records are i beleive in the fleet air arm museum, have look at their website to check but they take about 1 year to do lookups . Closer to home why dont you try the RN parol boat guys in Lowestoft. I know their WW2 but they may have contacts.

http://www.rnps.lowestoft.org.uk/association.html

[j.r.f]

MARK

I hope this will help.

SYMONDS Enginman HENRY 472ES Drifter GOLDEN RULE Royal Naval Reserv.Killed in action with T.B.Ds.in Straits of Dover 15 February 1918. Age 35 Son of William and Mary SYMONDS of Toft Montes Haddiscoe,Norwich. Husband of Marian Ellen Symonds of 3 Factory St Lowstoft.

FLAXMAN, Trimmer MARCUS BARRY, 5046TS.H.M. TRAWLER LOCH ARD. Royal Naval Reserve. Killed by mine explosion off Lowestoft 10 September 1917.

CHEERS,

JOHN

[Mark Crame]

Thanks chaps,

Question please: "Killed in action with T.B.Ds"

What are TBD's?

Am off to the local records office now, see If I can find them in the papers. Cheers,

mark

[Ian grant]

Hi Mark,

Forget the comments in my earlier post, i've been on the seamans register online and i can't find a listing for them, i would guess because they were Royal Naval Reserve, but i've found this (below) pasted from the NA's research leaflets regarding Royal Naval reserve files, Henry symonds service records will be in BT377

though, Marcus Barry Flaxmans may not it looks like he was RNR (T) Royal Naval Reserve (trawler section) and apparently were Quite distinct (quote) from the RNR proper and would have enlisted on a form known as T124, i've pasted the relavant sections of the NA's research guide.

Royal Naval Reserve

Military Records Information 37

1. Introduction

Proposals for a naval reserve were discussed by the Registrar-General of Seamen as early as 1838 but it was not until the Royal Naval Reserve Act 1859 that provision was made for the Admiralty to maintain a reserve of up to 30,000 men, recruited from among merchant seamen and fishermen through local shipping officers, who could be called upon for service in the Royal Navy in times of emergency.

2. Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section - RNR(T)

The RNR was generally confined to officers and men of deep sea merchantmen but in 1911 it was felt that there was a need to employ trawlers in war-time as minesweepers and patrol vessels. The Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section - RNR(T) was set up to enrol the necessary personnel. Although abolished as a separate section of the RNR in 1921, the RNR(T) always remained quite distinct from the RNR proper, and employed fishermen. In both world wars a large number of trawlers were taken up by the Royal Navy complete with their crews, who were entered on a form T124 by which they engaged to serve in a named vessel for the duration of the war only. Fishermen on a T124 formed the bulk of the RNR(T) during the First World.

7. Records of Ratings

A selection of records of service of ratings who served between 1860 and 1913 are in the class Royal Naval Reserve: Representative Records of Service (BT 164 ). They consist of volumes and cards, each page or card representing five years' service in the RNR. Any individual reservist may therefore be entered in several volumes or cards. Letters (A, B, etc) were given to successive five year terms. The entries are in numerical order of enrolment.

For the First World War period, service details of RNR ratings are held on microfiche in series BT 377 , arranged in service number order. Name indexes are available within the series on microfilm covering the period back to 1860.

The document ADM 23/170 gives information on Admiralty pensions granted to RNR ratings from 1922 to 1925.

8. Medals

Records relating to the award of the RNR Long Service medal are in ADM 171/70 , ADM 171/71 , ADM 171/72 . Honours and Awards for the RNR during the First World War are in ADM 171/77 . Each volume is arranged in alphabetical order, although not strictly within each letter. Papers on awards to RNR officers during the Second World War are in BT 164/23 .

The Roll of the Naval War Medals also contains entries for the RNR - officers in ADM 171/92 , ADM 171/93 and ratings in ADM 171/120 , ADM 171/121 , ADM 171/122 , ADM 171/123 , ADM 171/124 .

[squirrel]

TBD's - Torpedo Boat Destroyers?

[Mark Crame]

Am just back from Lowestoft records Office. I checked the 1901 Census for Haddiscoe - there is a Barry Flaxman, aged 19 who is recorded as fisherman and born in Haddiscoe. That means he can only be Marcus Barry Flaxman, as a sailor, or, if Barry is a drivative of Archibald or Herbert:

FLAXMAN, ARCHIBALD CHARLES Private 19294 06/03/1916 0 Norfolk Regiment

FLAXMAN, HERBERT CHARLES Gunner 102035 26/09/1917 0 Royal Garrison Artillery

As he was a fisherman I am 99% sold on Marcus Barry Flaxman. I feel he may have been resident in the next village along hence recording as Marcus Barry Flaxman on their memorial.

There is no Henry Symonds, but next village along (perhaps on the border?) has the parents of this one with two other children - Percy and Herbert aged 8 and 11. If the older boy had moved by then he would have not been on the census and would be about the right age. Younger he probably wouldn't have been in action. So, I think he's the right man too. Perhaps tomorrow I'll check the 1891 census.

Thanks for your help chaps, really appreciated.