armourersergeant Posted 29 August , 2003 Share Posted 29 August , 2003 I was wondering what imformation was usually on the officers records held at the Pro in the appropriate section. Does it cover there full career in brief or just awards etc. Does it also cover all ranks upto and including Generals, obviously if they retired before 1922. Ta Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 29 August , 2003 Share Posted 29 August , 2003 Arm, From my experience this can vary considerably! Some files I have accessed have contained the full works including orignal medical records, papers transeferring them between units and latter correspondence concerning anything from enquiries from prospective employers to one case where an MGC Major with the MC was convicted of embezzlement whilst working in a bank. There was a whole chapter on whether he had to return his MC! Other files have contained just one summary sheet! The most interesting was one which contained nothing except for a receipt!!! It is a common misconception that the records of all officers who served in WW1 and not WW2 are available. I was told by a well known employee of the PRO that the War Office changed its archiving procedures around late 1920/early 1921 and a lot of records of officers leaving the service at that time were destroyed. Hope this helps. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 29 August , 2003 Share Posted 29 August , 2003 There tends to be a great deal about officers' estates. There are often nice little surprises eg yesterday a handwritten list of personal effects found on a body by a brother officer. If they were commisioned from the ranks, you often find the original attestation papers. I'm busy checking Buffs officers now and am beginning to appreciate just how many records are missing - I wrongly assumed they'd all be there. Ian, I've got an embezzler too but it appears that once the Regiment told them he was an ex-POW, his case was dropped. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 29 August , 2003 Share Posted 29 August , 2003 There tends to be a great deal about officers' estates. There are often nice little surprises eg yesterday a handwritten list of personal effects found on a body by a brother officer. If they were commisioned from the ranks, you often find the original attestation papers. I'm busy checking Buffs officers now and am beginning to appreciate just how many records are missing - I wrongly assumed they'd all be there. Agree with comments by Michael and Ian - the contents vary a lot. However the 'hit rate' in WO 339 & 374 is much better than in OR records in WO 363 & 364. I am currently looking for the service papers of men commissioned from the ranks of the 19th London Regt. Of 89 officers I have so far found the papers of about 60 - i.e. c 66% success. (However there are about 10 who have relatively common surname/inital combinations e.g. KING W. and I would have to pull about 15 files on each to find perhaps one that is the right one. I havent bothered looking for those guys yet, and when I do I hope that this % will increase.) I have also found the papers of 8 out of 9 officers in my family. I have found that those commissioned from the ranks tend to be more complete as you have the attestation papers, Imperial Service obligations forms, casualty forms etc which give a lot of detail on their backgrounds. However, those men comissioned pre-war or direct in 1914 dont appear to have anything like as much of this useful biographical stuff. Fatal casualties, pension requests, medical boards etc tend to be well covered, as do court martials. I think there are some differences by regiment - I looked for some fatal casualties among officers of the 8th Green Howards, and these had copies of letters written by officers and men in their platoons/companies which gave accounts of their death. Some of the records do take some tracking down. PROCAT descriptions (esp in WO 339) often miss out the middle initial i.e. if you want BLOGGS J.E. you may have to go through all the BLOGGS J. to find your man. I have been pleasantly surprised by how much I have been able to find so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 29 August , 2003 Share Posted 29 August , 2003 And another related daft question. Can I assume that if I've done a search of the PRO on-line catalogue and found my officer then I'm likely to get something useful. And, conversely, If I havnt found my man on-line, can I assume that they havnt got anything on him. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 29 August , 2003 Share Posted 29 August , 2003 John What you are least likely to find a detailed chronologue of the officer's service. These did exist but were, I believe, destroyed by the Luftwaffe. What you are like to find are reports of medical boards, dispola of deceased officers' effects, usually OR papers for men commissioned from the ranks and lots of other miscellaneous correspondence. Personally speaking, I wouldn't accept failure to find the guy in PROCAT as meaning there is no file - I always check WO338 (on microfilm) which is effectively the alphabetical index to WO339 - apart from anything else this solves the problem with WO339 having lots of entries on PROCAT with only one initial - and I always check the paper catalogue for WO374. If that doesn't work, it's down to the Army List and the Gazette. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 30 August , 2003 Share Posted 30 August , 2003 Personally speaking, I wouldn't accept failure to find the guy in PROCAT as meaning there is no file - ............. Here Here - wouldnt trust it as far as I could spit it ! regards - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 30 August , 2003 Share Posted 30 August , 2003 Jock/Tom Many thanks for the tip. My first visit to PRO will be after Xmas. It's mainly war diaries I'll be after. But, unlike you guys, I don't live round the corner so am planning probably a 3 day trip to The Big City. I was thinking of a back-up plan if I get though my main research much quicker than I reckoned and some personal details of some of my memorial guys seemed like a good bet. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 30 August , 2003 Share Posted 30 August , 2003 I'm planning to research a captain who served in the intelligence service. His name is L.N. Murphy, buried in the town cemetery of Ypres. The only non IWCG-commissioned British civilian buried under a CWGC headstone on the Western front as far as I know. Quite an interesting figure actually, reveived the 'croix de guerre' for evacuating the population of Bethune when the town came under German bombardment. Anyone has any experience with this? Does it cause any problems? I also wondered if permission of the family is necessary to view an officer-record. Best, Bert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 30 August , 2003 Share Posted 30 August , 2003 Bert, no family permission required - in simple terms the record of service was government property, they have made it available to the public. The family has no say. Assuming he had left the Army by 1922 you have a good chance of finding him. I do not think that files of 'intelligence' types are restricted - I've found most of the ones I've looked for. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 30 August , 2003 Share Posted 30 August , 2003 Quite an interesting figure actually, reveived the 'croix de guerre' for evacuating the population of Bethune Bert, Is it possible to find, in Belgium, names of foreigners who received a Croix de Guerre? I am trying to track down a G H Horf who received a Croix de Guerre. I don't know whether it's French or Belgian. This man worked in Fiji for an Australian Sugar Company, but is not in the AIF nor the NZEF Is HORF a Belgian name? Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 31 August , 2003 Share Posted 31 August , 2003 Dear Christine, I should think this is possible, yes, but I honestly don't know if the 'croix de guerre' was also a Belgian decoration. I always thought it was a French one. Maybe other Belgian palls might be able to help. If you are looking for a particular Belgian soldier, you should turn towards the Belgian military archives, but they are moving for the moment. Also, depending on the date of birth, you will still need family-permission for some files of WW1-soldiers. Horf doens't sound Flemish to me. rather German or dutch. Maybe if you give me some more details of the soldier, I can come up with some more thoughts. If you know when he received the 'croix de guerre' f.e., it might be usefull to check French or Belgian newspapers around that date, although I don't think there will be much in Belgian newspapers due to the fact that almost all were printed in occupied territory. Best, Bert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 31 August , 2003 Share Posted 31 August , 2003 G H HORF Croix de Guerre Colonial Sugar Refinery, Fiji not NZEF, not AIF presumably fought in Flanders/France That's all I know about him! I'm pretty sure the Croix de Guerre was also a Belgian medal. Anyone have any ideas on tracking him down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 31 August , 2003 Share Posted 31 August , 2003 Bert/Christine The list of individual honours in my history of the Cheshires mentions Croix de Guerre from France and Belgium. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 1 September , 2003 Share Posted 1 September , 2003 Hi Christine: Belgium did award the Croix de Guerre during WWI. I have a list of 388 Canadians who were awarded the medal. All were gazetted. When I searched the London Gazette's web site they have a listing for G H Horf: May 15, 1917 - issue 30074. Unfortunately, when I tried to call up the pdf file I got an "Unable to access document" error. Try the search again later and maybe you'll have better luck. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 1 September , 2003 Share Posted 1 September , 2003 Thanks Garth, that looks like him. I've tried accessing the reference, but the PDF file won't open for me either, so I emailed the London Gazette. Maybe others could check, using different names, and also get in touch with them if it doesn't work Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 2 September , 2003 Share Posted 2 September , 2003 The London Gazette works properly now, but this is the reference London Gazette As you can see it reads Norf (= Norfolk) as Horf So that's not him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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