lionboxer Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 With the referbishment of our village memorial in the pipeline we have now found a further five men who qualify for addition to it. Three of these are Norfolks and we would like a little help please with their service details and what the Norfolks were doing at the time. 7138 Pte. Freeman Harber 1st Norfolks KIA 15/9/14 7000 CSM. William E. Starman M.M. 1st Norfolks KIA 16/9/18 MM gazetted 27/10/16 7609 A/Sgt. John H. Preston DCM. Ment in Desp. 2nd Norfolks Died 1920 possibly due to wounds. DCM gazetted 5/8/15 MiD gazetted 5/4/16 Can anyone confirm that these were Regular soldiers from their regtl nos? Harber and Starman have 1914 Stars but Preston has 1915 Star though his MIC states he was in theatre 15/11/14 in "(5) Asiatic" theatre. Could it be that 2nd Norfolks were in India at the outbreak of war? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Lionboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambo Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Lionboxer Can't help much but I can confirm that the 2nd Norfolks were in India at the outbreak of the war and landed in Sanniya, Mesopotamia on the 15th of November 1914. The entire battalion was captured in April 1916 at Kut according to "British Regiments" and a composite English battalion was formed from drafts and returning wounded from both the 2nd Norfolks and from the Dorsets. on the 4th of February 1916 (I assume while the 2nd were still under siege) at El Orah on the Tigris. They became known as the "Norsets" as it had two companies from each regiment. This unit was broken up on the 21st of July 1916 and the 2nd Battalion was reformedwith two companies from this composite battalion and further reinforcements. At the end of the war they were part of 37th Indian Brigade, 14th Indian Division and were at Imam Abbas, near Mirjana NE of Bagdad Your man could have been captured at Kut and died later as so many of them did, or he may have already been wounded and been one of the draft brought in to form the new battalion? More questions than answers I'm afaid. I would say that he was a regular simply because he was in theatre from the start. Hope this is of some use Hambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 According to the unit history, the 2nd Batt’n left India (where they had been since 1911) on 03/11/14 and sailed for the Persian Gulf . They arrived on the 15th. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Preston has 1915 Star though his MIC states he was in theatre 15/11/14 in "(5) Asiatic" theatre. Could it be that 2nd Norfolks were in India at the outbreak of war? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Lionboxer The 1914 Star was for service in France and Flanders theatre only, Aug - Nov 1914 - under fire. If Preston was in " Asiatic " theatre in Nov 1914 he would not qualify for it but would have beeen awarded the 1914-1915 Star. The codes for Theatres are: 1 Western Europe 1a France & Belgium 1b Italy 2 The Balkans 2a Greek Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria and European Turkey 2b Gallipoli (Dardanelles) 3 Russia between 4-5 August 1914 and 1-2 July 1920 4 Egypt 4a Egypt between 4-5 November 1914 and 18-19 March 1916 4b Egypt between 18-19 March 1916 and 31 October-1 November 1918 5 Africa 5a East Africa, Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia 5b South West Africa 5c Cameroon 5d Nigeria 5e Togoland 6 Asia 6a Hejas 6b Mesopotamia 6c Persia 6d Trans Caspia 6e South West Arabia 6f Aden 6g Frontier regions of India 6h Tsing-Tau This seems to point to his being in Africa. How have you concluded these men were mistakenly left off the memorial when originally raised? Have you the cause of Preston's 1920 death from this death certificate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snavek Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Lionboxer, Pte. Preston is on the Le Ferte-Sous-Jouarre Memorial, almost 4000 officers and men who died in the first two and a half months of the war, and have no known grave, are remembered there. The 1st Norfolk's, 15th Bde., 5th Div. landed in France in August, and as you say he was kia 15th September. Malcolm Brown's '1914' records 15th Bde. were on the Marne on 9th September. CSM Starman is shown as A/CSM on SD. He's buried in St. Severs Cemetery Extension, Rouen which suggests he died of wounds. Would I be right thinking you have personal details of these men? If you can, get yourself to the Norfolk Regimental Museum in Norwich, you'll find a wealth of info. including if your men were regulars or not, but give them a ring first. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Keith I think you meant Pte Freeman Harber, not Preston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionboxer Posted 9 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Many thanks for your input Pals. We've still got a lot to learn!! The five new men all have links with Bergh Apton but only two are on any local memorial. A name is just a name unless it has local connections where the significance and memory of these men has greater importance to the community. It's also important for family history researchers. There are several reasons why they were ommitted from the memorial, families move away and names weren't submitted to memorial committee's or sadly just didn't care or chose to forget. The ones we are concerned with were either born here and/or their parents or NOK lived here. Starman lived on the Parish border so is in bit of a no-mans land with no-one claiming him. Preston came to light when PCC records were searched and a memorial service for him was held early March 1920 just before the memorial was put in place. His death certificate is being sought and a visit to the regimental museum is being organised, also a visit to the NA for their service records at sometime unless there are any kind Pals that are going and know what they're doing!! I've tried in vain to get his DCM and MiD citation from the LG but nothing comes up. Any helpers? Upon closer inspection of his MIC the theatre code is 5A which would have been East Africa, Nyaserland and Northern Rhodesia but this doesn't tie-up with the 2nd Norfolks movements. Prestons service looks as though it could be rather interesting. Lionboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rmatt800 Posted 9 January , 2006 Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Sometimes, service people who 'died' after the official end of the conflict were not added to a war memorial too. This is quite common. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 9 January , 2006 Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Corporal J. H. Preston's DCM Citation can be found Here Citation reads: "For conspicuous gallantry at Barjisiyah (Turkey in Asia) on 14th April, 1915, in controlling and directing the fire of his section, and also for the courageous manner in which he led his men in the final assult on the enemy's trenches." Hope this helps Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 9 January , 2006 Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Upon closer inspection of his MIC the theatre code is 5A which would have been East Africa, Nyaserland and Northern Rhodesia but this doesn't tie-up with the 2nd Norfolks movements. Prestons service looks as though it could be rather interesting. The codes for Theatre of War were, at some point, changed. The codes listed earlier in this thread are the later set. A search of this forum or the Long Long Trail should point you in the right direction as to when they were changed. My understanding is that, as his MIC suggests, he did serve initially in 5 (Asia). At the time of his entry into the war the East African theatre was numbered 4a. Hope this helps. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionboxer Posted 9 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Corporal J. H. Preston's DCM Citation can be found Here Citation reads: "For conspicuous gallantry at Barjisiyah (Turkey in Asia) on 14th April, 1915, in controlling and directing the fire of his section, and also for the courageous manner in which he led his men in the final assult on the enemy's trenches." Hope this helps Steve [/quote Wow!! That was quick Steve. Thanks very much. How did you do it? I tried and nearly sent myself nutty. I don't suppose you could find the Gazette entry for his MiD please. Thanks for your idea Rmatt800, we're waiting for the death certificate to confirm this. Any info about Barjisiyah please anyone? Lionboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 9 January , 2006 Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Lionboxer I've attached a link Here which should take you to the Gazette of 5th April 1916 (18 pages in all). It is the despatch which details the operations in Mesopotamia from mid-April to mid-September 1915. The action at Barjisiyah is mentioned on pages 1 & 2 (at least) and Preston's MID (note there is never a citation with a MID) is mentioned on page 15. Hope this helps Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionboxer Posted 9 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Steve, you really are a good lad. Thanks for that scoop. I've just had confirmation from my co-researcher that John Preston is on the 1901 census living with his father, mother and sisters at Norwich Road, Bergh Apton aged 11. His parents were the publicans of "The Bell" public house (Hellington Corner) Bergh Apton at one time, and we have photos of them in our book of the village. Sadly no photo of John as yet (fingers crossed). His cause of death is now crucial for him to be remembered on our memorial though his exploits with the Norfolks will be recorded in the village archive. We're not sure if he was burried in our churchyard (still scouring burial records) as only a memorial service was held for him. Strangely, another man on our memorial 16520 Pte. Charles Greenacre 2nd Norfolk was KIA on 22/4/16 in Mespot. and is on the Basra Memorial. Would he have been a reinforcement with a number like that? Lionboxer STOP PRESS My co-researcher has just informed me that at the battle of Bajisiyah it was the last time the officers drew swords in battle crying "come on the Ninth" (Norfolks - Ninth of Foot) whilst during a bayonet charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Crame Posted 9 January , 2006 Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Lionboxer, I'm in Lowestoft and have a mate in Bergh Apton. I'm into remembrance, and I'm a photographer. If you have a service of re-dedication, give me a call and I'll try to come and do some pics for you. Send me a PM nearer the time. Regards, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 9 January , 2006 Share Posted 9 January , 2006 From SDGW 7138 Pte. Freeman Harber 1st Norfolks KIA 15/9/14 Born Bungay, Suffolk Enlisted Norwich 7000 CSM. William E. Starman M.M. 1st Norfolks KIA 16/9/18 MM gazetted 27/10/16 Born Devonport, Devon Enlisted Norwich Died of wounds All The Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 9 January , 2006 Share Posted 9 January , 2006 Strangely, another man on our memorial 16520 Pte. Charles Greenacre 2nd Norfolk was KIA on 22/4/16 in Mespot. and is on the Basra Memorial. Would he have been a reinforcement with a number like that? Lionboxer STOP PRESS My co-researcher has just informed me that at the battle of Bajisiyah it was the last time the officers drew swords in battle crying "come on the Ninth" (Norfolks - Ninth of Foot) whilst during a bayonet charge. I think you better check out my signature as my great uncle John William Bettles was a reinforcement with the NORSETS & was also killed on the 22 Apr 1916. All The Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snavek Posted 10 January , 2006 Share Posted 10 January , 2006 Kinnethmont, You are right, I couldn't find A/Sgt. Preston, thanks. My wife's family from the Attleborough area also have a 2nd Norfolk's man on the Basra Memorial. Last June the BBC put out a programme called 'Soldier, Husband, Daughter, Dad', about our troops in Basra. One clip showed them investigating the desecration of British graves in what looked like a CWGC site. I e-mailed CWGC asking if they had any info, they said they would get back to me-I'm still waiting. I'm sure we all understand the danger out there but surely a report must have been made out. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionboxer Posted 10 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2006 Thanks Chris and Keith. Mark I'll PM you. On Preston's MIC in the remarks column there is written "Dis" which I assume means discharge. If this is the case should there be a mention of a Silver War Badge anywhere? Lionboxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bloomfield Posted 11 January , 2006 Share Posted 11 January , 2006 Snavek, I'm also originally from the Attleborough area and am currently researching my village war dead (Old Buckenham). Coincidentally I am presently working in Iraq and have seen a couple of Commonwealth cemeteries but only through the window of a passing vehicle. The situation over here is such that anybody resembling a westerner would attract undue attention and there is a real danger of kidnapping so it would be very rash of anybody to attempt such a thing, bodyguards would be a must even in the notionally 'quiet' southern provinces. For what it is worth, the Baghdad cemeteries didn't look to be too bad, all things considered, a tad overgrown and rundown but certainly not smashed to pieces. If it had been at all possible or practicable to enter then I certainly would have as one of the lads from the village is buried there but I am a security consultant and probobly more aware than most of the risk involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicburch Posted 11 January , 2006 Share Posted 11 January , 2006 How do access the London Gazette? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismac Posted 12 January , 2006 Share Posted 12 January , 2006 Best bet is to go to your local library and ask for the The History of the Norfolk Regiment. You'll need the 1914-1918 volume. I know it would seem obvious but the first time I asked they just sent over the first volume. It's normally held at Gt Yarmouth but hardly ever gets taken out so they'll happily be able to get it for you. An excellent resource which allowed me to actually place very accurately what happened on the day many of the lads I'm researching died. A point about names on memorials is that there was a case locally of a mother refusing her son's name to be put on the memorial as she was convinced that he was only missing and would come eventually come home, whilst one chap appears on three local memorials and another had left the village some 15 years previous but was on as a result of his father being the local headmaster. My research is over in North West Norfolk anyway good luck chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismac Posted 12 January , 2006 Share Posted 12 January , 2006 Best bet is to go to your local library and ask for the The History of the Norfolk Regiment. You'll need the 1914-1918 volume. I know it would seem obvious but the first time I asked they just sent over the first volume. It's normally held at Gt Yarmouth but hardly ever gets taken out so they'll happily be able to get it for you. An excellent resource which allowed me to actually place very accurately what happened on the day many of the lads I'm researching died. A point about names on memorials is that there was a case locally of a mother refusing her son's name to be put on the memorial as she was convinced that he was only missing and would come eventually come home, whilst one chap appears on three local memorials and another had left the village some 15 years previous but was on as a result of his father being the local headmaster. My research is over in North West Norfolk anyway good luck chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snavek Posted 12 January , 2006 Share Posted 12 January , 2006 Greg, I understand what you are saying but this was a British Army Patrol investigating the desecration of British graves in or near Basra. Pleased to hear you are doing Old Buckenham, get in touch if you come across any Lincoln's. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bloomfield Posted 13 January , 2006 Share Posted 13 January , 2006 Keith I have three Lincolns, all researched as far as I know how to go. If you click on my name, e-mail me your address and I'll send all I've got. Regards Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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