Can Liverpool Pals Help

[Guest J.J.]

This is all the info I have, this was found on 1901 census

John James Sells.....age 25yrs....born London.

Private soldier in Liverpool Reg.

Patient in Royal Victoria Hospital......Southampton.

This must have been a war hosp. as it was full of other soldiers

There is no record of him on census before this date that I can find.

There is no birth/death record for him that I can find.

I know there was a fire that destroyed a lot of records at the hospital during w.w.1 but surely there must be records elsewhere for this soldier who may be my missing grandad.

He would have been born around 1876/77, and his father was a police officer, don't know where about though

as census says John Sells was born in London.

If any one could add anymore info I would be grateful. I have lived in Australia since 83 and formerly lived in Liverpool, unfortunately I don't have any rellies there that will help me. Thanks again.

[harribobs]

he seems to have survived WW1 (if he fought) there are no John Sells in CWGC site or SDGW as far as i can see

[Stephen Nulty]

JJ

Do you have anything else on the father? I can't find any "Sells" in London in the 1881 census who were policemen. Any Names/Dates/Ages, etc?

How do you know he was a policeman?

[CarylW]

Hi J J

From The Times Friday August 24th 1900

The War Casualties The Action near Van Wyk's Vlei :

General Sir R Buller Telegraphs that the following casualties in the action near Van Wyk's Vlei on August 21 are reported:................

.......Mounted Infantry Co. 1st Batt. Liverpool Regiment...... 5716 Pte Sells (missing)

Maybe they found him and he was injured and still in the Southampton hospital recovering on census night 31 March 1901 (where you found him) or maybe this is another Pte. Sells, some relation maybe?

Did your Pte Sells survive & later live in Liverpool?

I can ask someone for a look up in Gore's Liverpool 1911 Directory (I don't have this, you can buy them from Archive CD books)

Sorry, can't advise you about Liverpool Regiment records but there are people here who can

Caryl

[Guest J.J.]

Thank you all for your replies. The 'Sells' missing in action was a fantastic find, being a novice at researching war records I am very grateful that you are ready to share your knowledge with me.

Here is some of the story about my grandad.

Firstly my father John James Sells (born 1905...died 1983 in L.Pool ) said he was brought up in an orphanage and knew nothing about his parents. The family always assumed maybe he was illegitimate and thought no more about it.

Last year I decided to put a family tree together for the sake of my grandchildren, and on account we now lived in Australia with no relatives here. I obtained my fathers birth cert and 'Yes' his parents were married in Liverpool in 1904. Grandads name being same as himself...

John James Sells....age 27yrs....occup...Royal Mail Driver. (no birth place mentioned)

It stated his father (my Great Grandad) John Sells as being a police officer. Deceased. (doesn't say where)

So Gt.Grandad, police officer, was dead by 1904. Could he have been Militery Police ?

My Grans name was Edith Arabella Mitchell.. age 27..born in L.pool.

After 12 months searching for a birth/death cert for grandad......nothing.

Then an old last remaining Aunt in L.pool passed a message to me that my dad tried to find his father about

48yrs ago, and was told he died as a result of the war.

I then thought the soldier on 1901 census may have been him, but haven't proved it yet. Not knowing what happened to that soldier John Sells after the hospital census, leaves a big question mark.

I wish I could establish where he was born. There isn't any John J. Sells born 1876/7 that seems to fit the bill. Could be possible he was born overseas, and too sick to give his details.

Anyway grandad is a bit of a mystery, married in 1904, produced a son, then disappeared. My gran remarried in 1911 as a widow, there is 'No' death record for him, so he either ran off and left gran or re-enlisted in w.w.1.

Would he be able to re-enlist if he was discharged from Boer ??

Then on National Archives this was found....MEDAL CARD OF J. J. SELLS

CORPS REG. NO RANK. EAST SURREYS REG 12283 PRIVATE.

LABOUR CORPS..373088 PRIVATE.

DATE..1914-1920. CAT. REF W0 372/17.

I don't know if there is any connection with my grandad. HOW.... do I find out please ?

Thanks for listening to the saga,.......................from Jean

[CarylW]

Jean

I can't answer any of the military queries (except for very basic ones) because I'm new to that type of research but to answer from a genealogical point of view - you say you have checked BMD's, where?

If you have checked Free BMD or Ancestry's BMD (same database) or even the Lancashire BMD, none of those are complete databases yet. Also if you are searching for Liverpool in any of the above, don't forget to search in 'West Derby', as this area includes a lot of suburbs for Liverpool areas. Also try the other side of the Mersey, Birkenhead or Cheshire as people moved back and forth and settled over the river quite often (mine did) so also try Cheshire BMD or the Cheshire entries in Free BMD

1837 0nline has the COMPLETE GRO index including WW1 & 2 and overseas BMD's. There is a minimal charge for credits to search that and obtain the references (page and vol number) to apply for the cert from the GRO. I was subbed to that but have now used all my credits, or I would look it up for you - maybe someone who is on here and has credits left might help but it is quite cheap to use - or maybe that is where you have searched already?

I asked a friend of mine for a look up in Gore's Liverpool Directory 1911, no SELL's found - doesn't mean they were not there at the time as directories don't list every resident, particularly those in rooms, tenements, poorer areas etc, and a lot of other people can be missing

You say that your grandmother was a widow in 1911 when she married (what was her new married name?)- so let's say your grandfather had died before that time he would not have enlisted for WW1 (1914-18). BUT people do tell all kinds of porkies to the registrar when giving information about BMD events, so it is possible that he was alive. Not casting aspersions on your grandmother, but this can be occur (happened with one of mine)

You ask "Would he be able to re-enlist if he was discharged from Boer ", well many did, although your man, if that was him on the 1901 census may have had war wounds that made him ineligible for enlistment - although finding that MIC card, that could be him. With your father trying to search and being told that his father died 'as a result of the war' - Someone here has searched the CWG and not found him

OR maybe your father was told that and it wasn't necessarily true - family legends can have grains of truth, be the whole truth or not true at all. I noticed quite a few SELLS on the CWG war graves database for both WW1 &2 - is it possible he could have used another first name? or did he die as a result of the Boer war? maybe he WAS that soldier you found on the 1901 and later died of his injuries

Have you thought about hiring a researcher to look in Kew to see if that WW1 soldiers record survived? (the one you found a MIC for) but as you said many records were destroyed in WW2, so it may not be there, and if he isn't yours then.....

Also have you thought of joining a Rootsweb mailing list. There is one for Liverpool- ENG-LIVERPOOL, also LANCSGEN, both excellent lists, maybe someone there could help you more, do look ups in other census or you could find a relation

Click here for Rootsweb England mailing lists

This reply will bump this up, so maybe you will have other replies from the more experienced military experts

Caryl

[Guest J.J.]

Thanks Carylw, For all the helpful info you have given me. I have checked out most of the well known bmd's.Checked 1837 either side of the birth year and deaths for 1905 and 1909. Have also looked for army deaths and none to be found that fit.

My Gran Edith remarried Jan 1911 to a Charles O'Hagan who was 55yrs old and she was 32yrs. He was a widower and worked as a dock labourer. I have nothing on them after that. I find it a bit strange that she married Charles as a widow, but under her 1st husbands name of Larsen, why not as Sells ? It makes me think he wasn't deceased.!! Or was that normal them days.

I still think the soldier on 1901 census is the connection, if I could only find out where he went after hospital. He cant have died in hospital as there is no death registered as far as I can see.

Would he have recieved a pension or something that could be checked ?

I had a look at the rootsweb mailing list, and will go back and work out how to navigate through it.

Your help was greatly appreciated ....................Jean

p.s. Which is the best place to look for enlistments for East Surreys Reg. ?

[Guest J.J.]

Thank you all for yor help and replies. I find the "OLD LIVERPOOLS SITE" also have a military section so I will ask on there as well as here if thats o.k. I am still having trouble linking these men as my grandad.

Thanks ...........j.j.