Medal Mystery

[philary]

Hello Everyone

Happy New Year!

This is not strictly a WW1 query although given the abundance of knowledge on this forum I am hoping someone will be able to help me, or at least tell me where I can get help!

My Grandfather: William Hayes, joined the Navy in March 1901. I have obtained his service record from the National Archives.

He joined as a Boy 2nd class as his date of birth was recorded as 25th December 1883.

He was awarded 4 medals.

The WW1 trio and the third China Medal with the Taku Forts clasp - a rare one!

William always told his family he was in the Boxer Rising and was pinned all night under a gun causing his hair to go white. He dyed it throughout his life and suffered terrible nightmares following that incident. William went on parade in front of King Edward who noted the china medal and commented on it and its scarcity. William proudly wore his medals every Rememberance Day for the rest of his life.

The Boxer Rising took place in 1900, the previous year to his enlistment. The china medal was issued for the campaign between June and December 1900. The Taku Forts clasp was issued for the action on the night of 17th June 1900.

I have searched the medal roll at the National Archives and can find no reference to a William Hayes being awarded a China Medal with Taku Forts clasp. Thinking perhaps I had missed his name on the microfiche I sent for the 1900 china medal book listng all the recipients. This confirmed my earlier search - no record.

Given that his service record gives his date of enlistment as March 1901, this is not surprising.

The mystery is where did he get the medal?

The engraving around the edge shows WILLIAM HAYES O.S. HMS ????

The name of the ship was engraved on the medal, but at some point he filed it off.

It could be VESTAL

Which leads me to think that he had the medal engraved with the ship he was on and subsequently found out HMS Vestal did not take part in the Boxer Rebellion!

However he was on HMS Vestal in 1904 on the South China Station when the Manchurian Incident occurred involving China, Japan & Russia.

Were there spare china medals flying around the South China Station which he could have got hold of, had engraved and awarded himself?

In all aspects it appears to be an original medal!

Hope someone can help me solve the mystery! Thank you

Hilary

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Quite probable,or one of his shipmates "Lost" theirs,I expect he enjoyed some notoriety by wearing the Medal throughout his Civilian life though he would have been a brave man to wear it whilst Serving,as it was a serious offence,punishable by imprisonment to wear Decorations & Medals to which you were not entitled,It would be interesting to note if the medal appears renamed?[The originals were I beleive impressed,not unlike QSAs]The only ships entitled to the Clasp "Taku Forts" were HMSs:

Barfleur [19]

Centurion [25]

Endymion [8]

Aurora [11]

Orlando [37]

Alacrity [8]

Algerine [98]

Pheonix [12]

Whiting [57]

Fame [58]

[philary]

Thank you for your reply.

No it does not appear to be another man's medal apart from the removal of the ship's name the rest of the engraving seems original. A William Hayes was awarded a China Medal however it was awarded with no clasp, he was not an Ordinary Seaman, but ERA and his service number does not correspond with my William Hayes. This part of the medal appears not to have been tampered with!

Regarding the wearing of the medal according to my grandfather he wore it in front of the King who remarked on its rarity! I am wondering now if this was a bit of a tall story! However I have a photo of him in naval uniform with the medal proudly displayed on his chest. The photo is set in an embroidered picture of his South China Sea voyage in 1910 on HMS CLIO. This is verified on his service record!

Hilary

[RNCVR]

Hilary,

The China 1900 medal issued to the RN should definitely be IMPRESSED & not engraved. If its engraved then its a renamed medal.

Can you post a pic of the naming on the rim??? - This would be helpful in determining which one it is.

Further to yr last post - obtaining a China medal for him would not have been a problem - many sailors sold their medals after they left the service for various reasons - some even sold them whilst still serving!

As far as rarity goes the China medal to the RN is not particularly rare - its not as common as the QSA medal but its by no means rare - many ships qualified for the medal as they were present in the theatre of operations in the time frame permitted - & many were no clasp medals.

I cannot say anything in regards to King Edward's comments on the rarity of the medal/clasp, if in fact the story you have been told is true. Sailors are well known for telling tales - true or otherwise!

I once had a medal group to a sailor of the pre WWI time frame & he awarded himself 4 medals, all of which he had named to himself. He subsequently transferred to the RCN for WWI & was awarded the 1914-15 star trio for wartime service in the RCN - those were the only 3 medals he was entitled to - I still have the WWI trio.

The other medals he wore bore very little resemblance to the ships & time frames on his SR!

Lots of strange items out there!

Bryan

Bryan

Edited 5 January , 2006 by RNCVR

[RNCVR]

Further to my post above Hilary you mention that the medal is named O.S. - this abbrieviation signifies Officer Steward.

If he was indeed an Ordinary Seaman at the time the medal should be indented ORD.

if you could post a scan of his SR I would be able to tell you what his rank/rate was,

Bryan

[philary]

Dear Bryan

Thank you for all you help, it has been very much appreciated and once again the forum has proved invaluable.

Hilary

[RNCVR]

Hi Hilary,

Thanks you for sending me the pics of Hayes China & WWI medals. I have copied below my response to you via separate email. Hopefully this will answer your question concerning the validity of his China medal::

Hayes China medal is definitely renamed - what this means is that the orriginal medal naming has been shaved (removed by filing) from the rim & Hayes name & details engraved over. I have encl a scan of a properly named China medal from my collection to show you how it should be named - this medal is impressed with the recipient's details - the lettering has been impressed in with a punch - hopefully will be clear at yr end.

From an examination of Haye's SR he could not have served in China in '00 in the time frame permitted for the award of the China medal as he was not in the RN at that time. Its not my place to pass judgement on someone deceased or on a member of yr family, however presumably he decided he was entitled to the medal & wore it judging from the photo you have of him. I cannot speculate why - but only call yr attention to my post above in which I mention the group I once had to a sailor that had 4 medals named up to himself none of which he was entitled to. How both of them (& no doubt others) got away with it is open to speculation!

Haye's WWI 1914-15 star, British War & Victory medals are all good & are correctly named.

I have also recd the copies you have sent of his SR & will translate for you & post as soon as I am able,

Bryan

Edited 8 January , 2006 by RNCVR

[philary]

Hello Bryan

It has been great communicating with you off-forum and I am eternally grateful for the amount of help and information you have given me!

I had long suspected that his "China" Medal was not his and you have proved that, although I think you are saying that it is an authentic medal that has been altered. (Apologies on behalf of my grandfather to all those who are having a sharp intake of breath reading this.)

I shall always be proud of him though, because from real poverty and an orphan, he managed to lift himself from the workhouse in Ashton Under Lyne, near Oldham, to owning his own property, when he had a family.

He loved his time in the Royal Navy, joining in 1901 and serving into the 1920's, and wore all his medals with real pride (and obviously a great deal of nerve!) He could certainly tell a good yarn and although it seems these were greatly embellished, nevetheless there was a lot of truth in them, it is just hard now deciding what is true and what is make-believe.

I am sure that there must have been other sailor boys like him. He volunteered to serve again at the outbreak of WW2 and was extremely disappointed not be "called" upon to serve again.

Thank you Bryan and I hope I can be of help to you sometime.

Hilary

[RNCVR]

Hello Bryan

It has been great communicating with you off-forum and I am eternally grateful for the amount of help and information you have given me!

I had long suspected that his "China" Medal was not his and you have proved that, although I think you are saying that it is an authentic medal that has been altered. (Apologies on behalf of my grandfather to all those who are having a sharp intake of breath reading this.)

Hi Hilary!

Wm Haye's China medal is definitely an authentic medal (that is to say its not a reproduction or a restrike or anything like that) its a legit medal that has had the orriginal name removed & Hayes put on in its place.

& from what you have sent me, he obviously wore it with pride!

I'll try to get the rest of his SR translation for you as soon as I am able,

Been great gabbing to you Hilary - kind of feel I know yr Greatgrandfather now!

Bryan