The tactics of 1/7/16

[PhilB]

From "Command & Control on the Western Front":-

At Thiepval on 1 July, Jardine - employing another tactic learned from the Japanese - ordered the assault companies of the 17th Highland Light Infantry to move out into No Man`s Land seven minutes before zero hour and to creep to within thirty yards of the German front line.

From Middlebrook:-

In the 32nd division, the Glasgow Commercials (ie 17 HLI) had captured part of the Leipzig Salient in a well-planned and executed rush as soon as the artillery had liftedoff the German front line, but apart from this only a few small parties like Reginald *******`s had gained precarious footholds in the German trenches.

The 97 brig attack was by 16HLI (511 casualties) and 17 HLI, supported by 2KOYLI and 11 Border (516 casualties). I`d be interested to know what the casualties were in the 2KOYLI and 17HLI and how the fortunes of 16 & 17HLI differed on this day. If the casualties in 17HLI were significantly lower than others in the brigade due to the common sense of Jardine (Battalion commander?), then surely this is an indictment of the planning at higher levels? Unless there are other factors?

[SOMMESOLDIER]

Hi Phil,

I'll have a bit of a read of things and then reply properly ! For your interest

17th H.L.I. 469 Casualties.

2nd K.O.Y.L.I. over 340 Casualties.

Seems it might suggest something ?!!

But just remember the 36th Ulster Division did that sort of thing at look what happened to them !!!

Cheers

Tim.

[PhilB]

It`s not looking like the 17HLI gained much from the tactic. Unless the casualties were suffered subsequently.

I`m disappointed to see Col B*st*rd`s name removed by the moderator!

[SOMMESOLDIER]

Hi Phil,

I thought that you had decided to edit his name like that. If it was the moderators then I too am dissapointed !!

Cheers

Tim.

[PhilB]

No. I put his name in full. I seem to recall his name being deleted before. Phil B

[SOMMESOLDIER]

Hi Phil,

Totally hilarious that his name has been edited when you see what word is being used constantly in the Dambuster's thread thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers

Tim.

[paul guthrie]

I have recently read that most units did not advance straigh up and slowly as we believe but that artillery was so woefully inadequate that it made no difference what tactics were used.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Just a couple of things to add as I was re-reading Hart's The Somme yesterday on the attack on Leipzig Redoubt by 17/HLI. First the wire was well cut and this together with Jardine's foresight meant the Scots could get a foothold in the trench before the Germans reappeared from their dugouts at zero hour. Leipzig was taken but the second objective of Hindenburg Trench proved a killing ground with the land covered by the 17/HLI swept by concealed MGs. Unfortunately the RFC incorrectly reported seeing British troops in Thiepval village meant the artillery was lifted from this sector.

Not sure if the above helps but certainly Jardine's tactics allowed the first objective of Leipzig Redoubt to be taken and my understainding is the 17/HLI casualties were suffered in the main, on the attack on Hindenburg Trench.

[squirrel]

Couple of points;

First the "B" word. What if somebody wants to use it in the another context or meaning? It has been used for years in engineering to describe something that is not a standard size or specification.

Second, I was under the impression that tactical matters were more likely to have been decided at Battalion or Brigade level rather than higher up.

Certainly some battalions in 47th Division at Loos were in No Man's Land to start their advance and this was not in Brigade orders.

Advancing at "rifle pace" (140 paces to the minute) was mentioned but only where it was pointed out that maintaining formation in sections could not be achieved by running.