Marco Posted 22 August , 2003 Share Posted 22 August , 2003 The Caverne du Dragon was closed the two times I went to the Chemin des Dames in a 15 year period. That made it something like an obsession to visit it. Well I did this year and was rather disappointed. The most interesting items on display were pictures how it looked in the 1970’s. Even we saw a nice reconstruction trench when we visited in 1990. Now there is a modern building over the cave and the inside looks like a modern art gallery. Disappointment all around! Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 23 August , 2003 Share Posted 23 August , 2003 Same feelings here, Marco. (But then again, I'm a bit of a "traditionalist" when it comes to war museums). I feel the same about "In Flanders Fields" and the Historial at Peronne, both of which I've visited once and will probably never return to, even though I must have been past them 20+ times each since their opening. (I always liked the old Salient Museum and personally felt let down when it all went "modern"). Dave (anticipating opened flood gates here! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 23 August , 2003 Share Posted 23 August , 2003 I can't comment on the new building, as I have only driven by it and never been in, but I did visit the older site many times, and found the whole thing fascinating ... can you no longer walk through the tunnels and quarry? The 'museum' part of it was very small, and I must say the exhibits were all in a terrible state of decay - the dampness underground was a big problem and was rotting away nice examples of rare uniforms and equipment. I am sorry to hear that it has, apparently, swung too far the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 23 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2003 Hello Paul, There are still uniforms there, but displayed rather unattractively. All in a big ‘cupboard’ with a huge beam running in front of the window for support. No chance of a decent photograph. You can still visit the cave itself but as said it has been ‘modernised’. Part of this probably because of security reasons, so steal walkways, lots of steel cables etc. The other modernising part is putting in dozens of small modern lights on steams which look like flowers.... As said, I was 10-15 years too late. Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Kortooms Posted 23 August , 2003 Share Posted 23 August , 2003 Hello, I can’t compare the new and the old Caverne du Dragon, because I’ve only seen the new one. Ten years ago I wanted to visit the old version, but it was closed! It is still possible to visit some of the other original quarries in the region. In may I visited the Carrière de Froidmont/Tauentzien Höhle and Rouge Maison. It’s only possible to visit them on appointment, as they are normally closed. It’s a totally different experience in comparison with the Caverne du Dragon. No electricity and no lights. Both have plenty of original inscriptions and Rouge Maison even has a chapel. Our visit to the Carrière de Froidmont lasted about 2 hours and there were still large parts of the quarry that we hadn’t visited. On the photo you can see the (only) entrance to the Carrière de Froidmont. No concrete and no lift! Walter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 25 August , 2003 Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Fort Pompelle near Rheims has been closed and not according to shcedule the two times I have visited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 25 August , 2003 Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Fort Pompelle near Rheims has been closed and not according to shcedule the two times I have visited. To be honest (for what you can actually see of the fort itself and its museum), you're not missing much. A walk around the outside of the fort is much more rewarding as ,inside, there's not a lot (available) to see. I didn't find the museum very informative either.....However.....there is an absolutely fantastic collection of Imperial german headgear inside. I must have spent the best part of an hour looking at these (wishing, wanting,plotting )and about 15-20 minutes going round the rest of the stuff. The headgear collection makes it all worthwhile. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas G. Posted 27 August , 2003 Share Posted 27 August , 2003 Goodnight, I visited the Caverne du Dragon in July. I was not disappointed or enthousiast. Of course, it's a modern building because it is recent. I think they had to adapt the place to receive a certain number of visitors, groups or pupils. They also have to arrange for the disable people with lift etc. I agree the inside is particular but not so much schoking. What I regret is that you have to follow the guide (ours was excellent), no time to have a look around. There is only guided visits. I think the first aim of the place is not be a museum but the visit of the Dragon's Lair and understanding what happened there. So, they display the minimum required. The whole is a good thing to ww1 memory and is not "in danger" and must be include in touring the Chemin des Dames. Some other underground carriers suffer from vandalism : the guide said soldiers sculptures are cutted/removed and sell on the internet.. Personnaly, I don't think modern WW1 museums have to be full of heap of militarias etc. (like the Memorial de Fleury near Verdun). I like militarias or warfare materials in little museums (like the Musée des Abris) or in private collections. So I appreciate more comprehensive museum like the Historial or IFF in Ieper. Of course, it's my own opinion ! Nicolas See attached pictures : rear of the building and german steles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas G. Posted 27 August , 2003 Share Posted 27 August , 2003 Inside : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garde Grenadier Posted 30 August , 2003 Share Posted 30 August , 2003 the Caverne du Dragon ... I was not disappointed or enthusiast. Of course, it's a modern building because it is recent.I agree the inside is particular but not so much schocking. What I regret is that you have to follow the guide (ours was excellent), no time to have a look around. There is only guided visits. I think the first aim of the place is not be a museum but the visit of the Dragon's Lair and understanding what happened there. So, they display the minimum required. The whole is a good thing to ww1 memory and is not "in danger" and must be include in touring the Chemin des Dames. Some other underground carriers suffer from vandalism : the guide said soldiers sculptures are cut/removed and sold on the internet.. While researching the fate of my great-uncle I did visit the Chemin des Dames and the Caverne du Dragon with a friend. There were only us two (German speaking) nonetheless we got an excellent German speaking guide who took us on a hurried tour through the whole thing. No time to look at anything closely, no chance to take a photograph. It all looked a bit clinical. I didn't like the building from outside at all. The inside is much better! The bit at the entrance about life in the trenches is well done. It was worth a visit though we the only thought we had was how unfortunate it is to be rushed through the Caverne (understandably as there were more groups waiting). The souvenir-takers or grave-robbers are surely a danger to any site. The things one can get via ebay etc... I wonder where they all come from originally! We also happened to see La Pompelle near Reims - as somebody already mentioned, quite a collection of German WWI headgear. Quite impressive! I only that these collectables will be safe - the climate underground was awfully hot and humid! What will happen to the fort? Best wishes Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 1 October , 2003 Share Posted 1 October , 2003 Each time this heading catches my eye I have this vision of our own Dragon Pal lurking in a cavern somewhere on the Western Front and belching out great tongues of flame at unsuspecting visitors! Sorry Dragon. Maybe Welsh Dragons are not so agressive! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 1 October , 2003 Share Posted 1 October , 2003 Tim where does the black flare bit come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 1 October , 2003 Share Posted 1 October , 2003 Paul Robert Graves. (Goodby To All That) He and some fellow officers were speculating one evening about the meanings of various flare colour combinations being sent up by the Germans, and came to the conclusion that a black flare at night was definitely unlucky! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 16 November , 2005 Share Posted 16 November , 2005 Certainly been a while since this thread has been to the top, but thats part of the interesting part. Two years on, what other stories can we add about the Caverne? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 18 September , 2013 Share Posted 18 September , 2013 Most times I have been to the Caverne Du Dragon it has been an enjoyable experience. I must admit it has been a while since I ventured down to the lair, but the people who staff the museum have been friendly and there is a small cafe and the views over the Chemin des Dames ridges looking south are impressive. There are plans for a centenary exhibition of the role of the British Army on the Aisne in 1914 to be housed here near year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug504 Posted 18 September , 2013 Share Posted 18 September , 2013 I think it really down to personal feelings towards the more "modern" museums / displays, I feel the same about "In Flanders Fields" ,the Historial at Peronne, and the Wellington memorial as some of the respondents above. They are all a bit too sanitised and clinical for my tastes. However, on taking small school parties around these over the past years I can make a comparison between these and more "traditional" representations such as the Somme 1916 Albert museum. In the more "modern" representations students tended to rush through demonstrating little engagement with the guide or activities. In contrast we always have to "chase up" students from the Somme 1916 museum and the displays and artifacts elicit lots of questions. On our feedback sheets this museum is always a favorite with the students, (no, I have no connection with the museum, only an annual visit!). The rather stark Goodman subway at Beaumont Hamel is always popular indicating that less walkways, steel railings, information boards etc can be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxi Posted 18 September , 2013 Share Posted 18 September , 2013 I went there some time ago and it didn't do it for me,but probably more my mood at the time I think. I am told that the caves at Vingre might be of more of an interest to me. Has anyone visited these caves? Maxi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRC Kevin Posted 20 September , 2013 Share Posted 20 September , 2013 Nearly fifty years ago I was fortunate enough to spend a couple of months with a French family in Rheims. The Grotes du Dragon was one place we visited. No museum, no electricity and no public access, just a hole in the hillside with an iron door on it to stop looters. A friend of my hosts had the key to the cave and he gave us a personal guided tour. Not only was the place littered with abandoned weapons and relics, I can even remember a piece of skull and various other bones in one side cavern. The host family had a son my age and we regularly went off together on our bikes to explore Pompelle, which had just been abandoned at the end of the War and was full of unexploded ordnance (some larger than ourselves) and in the lower levels kit lay scattered about all over the place. One thing we did 'liberate' was a Chauchat magazine (still full), which we gave to the chap who ran a cafe across the road from it, to put with all the other relics on his walls. I went back c.2006 with my wife and both places were 'okay', but much of the 'mystery' had disappeared with their development as museums. The two lower underground levels of Pompelle and much of the two upper levels of the fort aren't open to the public for 'safety' reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 21 September , 2013 Share Posted 21 September , 2013 Hello Kevin Interesting post. I had a similar experience this summer when the ex mayor of Roucy organised a tour of an underground Cavern which is not open to the public. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 30 September , 2013 Share Posted 30 September , 2013 The wife and I were at the Caverns last year, went inside the modern building, had a quick look round and left. I lost all interest in going into the caverns for some reason...... I still rate the small museum at Notre Dame de Lorette as the best in the battlefields, the only shame is the gradual deterioration of the exhibits outside in the "trench" area... But no matter, it is the one museum I WILL take my battlefield companions to when on a tour... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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