joerookery Posted 15 December , 2005 Share Posted 15 December , 2005 I have been so impressed with the recent thread on a postcard translation. I would now ask help from everyone on this one. I have plastered this picture around several places, but after reading Jack Sheldon's book. I have my doubts, if I have identified the unit properly. I will put up a series of pictures, and I can send a high density scan of the back of the postcard by e-mail if that will help you. The picture in question is really quite important for helmet collectors. The gentlemen with the Pickelhaubes are wearing something known as a scroll Filz helmet. Traditionally, collectors believe that these helmets were only used in Serbia. I thought I got a partial translation of this card, which identified it on the Somme. Frise in specific. I could be entirely wrong. I have had a hard time identifying the number on the scroll. Initially I thought it was Regiment 51, but then I came to the conclusion that was infantry Regiment, 31. Jack's book in relation to that battle turned my attention back to 51. What you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerookery Posted 15 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2005 And now close-ups of the helmet plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerookery Posted 15 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2005 Any help on the translation or unit identification would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. I cannot read this sign that is being held at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 15 December , 2005 Share Posted 15 December , 2005 The text on the Postcard in modern German: Die besten Grüße sendet Euch Michael. Bin noch gesund und munter, sende anbei eine Photographie zur Erinnerung an die Stürmer von Frieße [= Frise] an der Somme. in attempt to translation: The best greetings is sending you Michael. I am well healthy and agile yet; send in attachment a photograph for memory to the conquerors of Frise at the Somme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerookery Posted 16 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 16 December , 2005 Thanks! That is perfect now what do you think about the #? 31 or 51? Jack's o[pinion will be most interesting. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 16 December , 2005 Share Posted 16 December , 2005 If you search on Frise you'll return a few posts. Some seem to have had pics (which must be in transition). Check the Forum archive if it appears there are some you might be interested in. Also - Malte were any of your post pics from Frise? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malte Znaniecki Posted 16 December , 2005 Share Posted 16 December , 2005 Also - Malte were any of your post pics from Frise? Andy Sorry not yet, Andy. But a Frise-topic is planned and will be started next Year. With best regards Malte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 16 December , 2005 Share Posted 16 December , 2005 Joe Your work on these helmets and knowledge about them is just amazing but, as I think you yourself have decided, it's got to be a picture of men of the Koeniglich 4. Niederschlesischen Infanterie Regiment Nr. 51 Malte's transliteration confirms it. No other infantry unit in 11th Infantry Division (and there is no doubt that they were the ones who 'stormed' Frise) could be mistaken for it. The other numbers involved were 10, 11 & 38. Even if it had been IR 31, it would still not support the Serbia theory, because that regiment was part of 18th Infantry Division which spent a large part of the war until early July 1916 when it arrived on the Somme in Champagne. Sorry I can't offer any suggestion to explain the anomaly but maybe someone else can cast some light on it. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirelessboy Posted 18 December , 2005 Share Posted 18 December , 2005 Hi - speaking purely as an amateur - the translation reads or sounds as though one of the pictured soldiers is sending the card of himself and some mates to people though know on the Somme, which of course puts the Picklehaubs anywhere but the Somme. Just my opinion - thought I'd join in!! Nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPotter Posted 19 December , 2005 Share Posted 19 December , 2005 From the picture, I would have bet my bottom dollar on the number being 31, not 51. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 19 December , 2005 Share Posted 19 December , 2005 Yup! Me too, thats surely 31 and not 51. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Malte is correct in that one of the translations of [/i]zur Erinnerung an... is 'in memory of', but it is not its only meaning and it is not the one which applies in this case. It has another meaning which crops up all the time on postcards and photographs of the Great War and that is, 'a souvenir of'. I have another example in my collection of a group of men standing behind a written caption, using this phrase. In that case the caption translated as 'A souvenir of a group of Feldgrauen, who have not washed for fifteen days'. There is no doubt in my mind that this is a photograph of some of the men who attacked Frise on 28 January 1916, that one of them was called Michael and that he sent the postcard. They could only come from IR 51, or IR 38. The second figure is definitely not an 8, so that leaves IR 51 as the favourite and Joe to try to explain away the problem with the helmet. Translation is all about nuances and shades of meaning. English has a far larger vocabulary than German, so it is common for there to be more than one meaning in English of the same word or phrase in German. In this case the reading makes a crucial difference. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Just thought I would agree with the 31 helmet number....... Not a 51 at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Could it be Field Artillery Regt 31 part of the 21 Armee Corps. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 (edited) Looks like a 31 to me as well Edited 21 December , 2005 by drummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 21 December , 2005 Share Posted 21 December , 2005 Looks like a 31 to me as well This probably does not make the least bit of sense but it's not a J is it? If not, then I think it's a 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerookery Posted 25 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 December , 2005 Thank you so much for your replies! We just returned from a cruise. Jack's book has me leaning square to 51. I thought it said 31. There are to my knowledge no existing examples of this helmet. The lack of spike is consistant but not its appearance on the western front. Where was IR31 at this time? Frankly this is exiting collector stuff! Merry Christmas. VR/Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 December , 2005 Share Posted 25 December , 2005 Definitlty 31. Was does the card being held up in the picture say? Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 25 December , 2005 Share Posted 25 December , 2005 First of all a very Happy Christmas to all followers of the thread. Here's a couple of thoughts to ponder as you get up from the groaning Yuletide board and let it all digest. 1. The written content of the card is absolutely consistent with it having been sent by a member of IR 51. 2. Look carefully at the disputed figure. Is it a 3? Is it a 5? I think that it can be read as 5 and, if it really was 3, it would be a slightly odd shape. The rounded section at the bottom of the figure is missing when the photograph is enlarged. If a small section of the left hand part of a 5 was also missing and you fill it mentally, then it could be a 5. As I mentioned in an earlier reply IR 31 had nothing to do with storming Frise. Those who did were highly delighted with themselves after the event and sent all sorts of messages home about it - I quoted one of them in my book. Anyway take another look and see if my explanation might fit. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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