German postcard depicting what regiment?

[GrandsonMichael]

A friend of mine sent me scans of this postcard. Is there anyone who could please help me to translate the written text from German into English?

I think it starts with Lieber Mutter…

The address:

An. Mul...................................

Walter Schultz (?)

in Beggerow

Demmin, Vorpommern (?)

I looked up & found Beggerow, Demmin, Vorpommern in the northeastern part of Germany – Prussia. Demmin being the historical base of the Ulanen or Light Cavalry. Which brings me to the next question and post.

Thanks in advance,

Michael

[GrandsonMichael]

German postcard – what regiment?

Possibly Ulanen?

Does anyone have any idea what regiment this could be and why they aren’t armed?

The postcard is dated 28.10.16

Thanks,

Michael

[Paul Hederer]

German postcard – what regiment?

Possibly Ulanen?

Does anyone have any idea what regiment this could be and why they aren’t armed?

The postcard is dated 28.10.16

Thanks,

Michael

Doesn't the post stamp say 46. Res. Div, or am I imagining things?

Paul

[GrandsonMichael]

Doesn't the post stamp say 46. Res. Div, or am I imagining things?

Paul

It's either 45 or 46. I thought it did say Res. but wasn't sure and the rest I can't really read. It could indeed be Div now I look at it. Thanks Paul.

Any more bright ideas?

Cheers,

Michael

[gericht 1914]

German postcard – what regiment?

Possibly Ulanen?

Definately not Uhlans, nor any other cavalry for that matter.

In 1916, the 45th Reserve Div. consisted of the 209th, 212th, 210th and 211th Res Infantry Regiments, the 17th res. Jaeger bn., the 45th Res.Cavalry detachment, 45th Res.F.A.rgt, 45th and 90th res.Pioneer Coys, 245th TM Coy, 45th Res Pont. Engs., 45th Res Ambulance Coy and the 732nd motor Transport Coy.

So, it could be a group of any of these really (or none!)

The 45th Res.Div. was from the II Corps district (Pomerania)

(the 46th was fropm the IX district - Mecklenburg, but I'm pretty certain your postcard is stamped "45")

D.

[Jack Sheldon]

Let's assume it was from someone within 45th Reserve Division, whose formations are correctly identified below. The division was involved on the Somme from about 2 - 20 September 1916 in and around Courcelette. It was then withdrawn to a quiet area a bit further south around Carlepont which is to the south of Noyon and not all that far from Compiegne. I suspect from the numbers that it is a picture of a weak company, possibly the survivors of the Somme fighting, taken when they were recuperating out of the line and before they had been brought back up to strength. If true that reduces the number of possible subjects down to about 50! The writing is extremely difficult, even though I have tried enhancing it with photoshop. Any chance of a better scan? Those blue indelible pencils that they used to write with faded and smudged badly.

Jack

[bob lembke]

There are several odd things about this card, postally, which increases your problem. Typically, a Feldpost from a Prussian unit, or going into the Prussian military mail system, the PC should generally have four elements on the text/address side; some are missing here.

First, there is the circular basic postal cancellation stamp, which you have. It identifies the date and hour of cancellation, and generally the divisional-level unit or often the field postal station number. (I have a card from my father, from Verdun in 1916, and this stamp identifies it as having been posted at the post office of the Crown Prince's 5th Army Command, not the Army's post office, quite unusual. My father told me that the Kronprinz liked to have a company of flame throwers about {he had personally bank-rolled the unit when it was first established}, and my father's company {2. Kompagnie} was based in Stenay-sur-Meuse where Willy's HQ was. This indicates how closely the Crown Prince and the flame thrower troops were. Pop told me that Wilhelm often dropped by the barracks and chatted the troops up, at least once dragging his father in as well {a funny story there}, and Pop said that he "bummed" a smoke from the KP several times, and mentioned one of these instances in a Feldpost to his father.)

Secondly (and thirdly), there generally are two stamps from the soldier's unit. One generally describes the regimental and/or battalion level unit, and the second the company level unit. These take several forms, including the slanted, rectagonal poor-quality stamp on your PC. So, if read, that stamp will give you the regiment, and/or the battalion, and/or the company. These stamps are similar and some times identical to the stamps used to stamp the soldier's Militaer=Pass. The regimental stamp will always (I think) be circular, a Prussian stamp will have the text written about and under a Prussian eagle inside the outer circular border of the stamp. The lower-level stamp will often be rectangular. So if you can read that stamp, you will have much of your info.

Finally, the PC or letter had to have an Absender ("sender") block written on by the soldier. This block of text, two or three lines in script, would identify, for the soldier, his rank, at least his last name, and his unit information, starting at about the regimental level, and going down to at least the company level, and often to the Zug and even the Korporalschaft. I don't see Prussian-handled mail after the first several months of the war that did not have this sender block.

Bavarian Feldpost did not have to have this, and generally did not, I think. Wuerttemburgische military post mail probably did, they were close to the Prussian model, and I don't know about Saxon mail.

Finally (this just occurred to me, I can't see the scan as I write this post), but wasn't the address written in Suetterlin or Kurrent old-fashioned script? From 1915 on all mail in the Prussian mail system had to have the address block (not the Absender block) written in "modern" script or block printing, not the old styles. This was so strong a perscription that very often the writers would write the place names in the text of the PC in "modern" script as well, sometimes causing problems when you try to read the card, not expecting modern words in the midst of a sea of Suetterlin.

So, in summation, I do not think that a Prussian or Wuerttemberg military post office would accept this PC in late 1916. What does this mean? Was this a Bavarian unit? Following Jack's hypothesis, could this be a Prussian company placed in the vicinity of a larger Bavarian unit for "R & R", using their postal system, and looser standards?

If this information is not enough detail for you, the German stamp collector's society has a "working group" on Feldpost, costing about 20-25 Euros a year (a couple of years ago), about 100 members. Being German, one every quarter they publish a newsletter on these matters, and every three months it comes out, exactly 50 pages in length, not 49 pages or 51 pages. Wir brauchen gutes deutsches Ordnung! In a moment of madness I almost joined this organization. Most members are German, but they told me that they have active members in the US, so probably in the UK as well. The newsletter, of course, is in German; it would be of little use to someone not familiar with that language.

My advice is to try to re-copy or re-scan the PC, turning up the contrast and possibly the enlargement (a bit), so that we can read the two postal stamps that you do have.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

Looking at the PC again, The first line of the square unit stamp is "S. M." This is very, very common when the stamp is square. I am not sure what it means, possibly, in translation, "His Majesty's". There is no special info there. Focus on the second line. Due to the overstamp the second half of the bottom line will probably not be legible. Is the first letter "b." or "B."? That might indicate a Bavarian unit.

Was there a Bavarian 45th or 46th Reserve Division? I would not think so, the number is too high, but that might solve the riddle. But I would think that a Bavarian division would say "b. 56. Res. Div.".

I have read 100 or more of these, 90% Prussian. This is a very odd PC.

Bob Lembke

[egbert]

I have reduced the gamma quite substantially, lokks like a 46ish. Store on desktop and zoom in:

[GrandsonMichael]

Jeepers, creepers. A man drops a question and leaves home for a while to come back to an incredibly detailed amount of information.

Thanks! All of you.Things are more complicated than I realised, should have known…

Bob, you’ve done a great job of enhancing the picture, but it doesn’t really help. I manipulated it with Paint Shop Pro and cannot get the original scan any sharper or clearer than you have. The original is about 1 MB and not clear at all, and the rectangular stamp is hopeless to read.

I'll add some background information: the postcard was in the possession of a Pte. who served with the 5th Canadian Field Ambulance from June 1917 onwards. This unit was part of the occupation forces after November 1918.

He also had an official “Canadian Certified Photograph” of a German prisoner being taken to a Dressing Station by stretcher bearers, after a Canadian trench raid. The photo was made in 1917, so one must assume that the photo was actually made in the second half of 1917. At the time this unit was in the Les 4 Vents, Barlin, Hersin-Coupygny areas and later near Pradelles, then Ypres, Potijze, and back again to Les 4 Vents, at the end of 1917.

There is actually a mention of wounded German prisoners (no names I’m afraid) in the War Diary entry of August 16, 1917. So one does wonder whether there is a connection…

Could the postcard have been unfinished, never sent and also a prisoner of war?

Oh, yes, Ordnung muß sein… .

I was puzzled by the text used. I had German at school (being half Dutch and born and bred in Holland), but these German characters look decidedly Slavic to me. No doubt that the history of the region explains this?

Cheers,

Michael

[Jack Sheldon]

For the time being, I am sticking with the thought that the postcard was handled by 45th Reserve Division, but I must admit that my information on 46th Reserve is a bit sketchy. I have all the regimental histories from 45th Res, but only one, namely that of RIR 213, from 46th Res. If somebody has access to the histories of the other regiments from this div: RIRs 214, 215 & 216, it may be possible to confirm a snippet I have found elsewhere, which is that 46th Res was engaged on the Somme from 5 Sep - 28 Oct 1916. Unfortunately just before this tour, RIR 213 was detached to form 207th Infantry Division with RIR 209 and IR 413. This is long-winded way of getting round to the point that if 46th Res was only relieved on 28 Oct, it is not very likely that someone had time to write a postcard a day or two before that. Not only that, but the area round CARLEPONT was very wooded - check the photo - and 46th came from St Eloi to the Somme and went on to the Champagne region afterwards.

The writing itself is not strange , unusual or limited in geographical extent. As Bob says it is 'Kurrent', the standard script up until the introduction of Suetterlin in German schools (but only from 1915 onwards). Kurrent is derived from the alte deutsche Handschrift and lasted well into the 20th Century. For those struggling to read it I suggest you Google 'Kurrent' and download the alphabets. The ligatures make some of the letter differentiation difficult and other common letters cause difficulties. 'e' looks like a roughly drawn 'n' and is only differentiated from 'u' because the latter always has a stroke above it etc. etc. And to cap it all, as I mentioned, they would use smudgy indelible pencils. The content of these cards is usually spectacularly banal when you have finally transliterated and translated it!

Jack

[GrandsonMichael]

The content of these cards is usually spectacularly banal when you have finally transliterated and translated it!

Grin. Thanks Jack for the added explanation. There seems to be a gap in my education.

I think we should bank on the 45th Reserve Division. The 5 or 6 looks very much like a 5 to me.

It just stops short of making a clear 6, I think. Good to get all this detailed information. About time

I studied German Orbats, to complement the slowly growing knowledge of the British & Canadian ones.

Cheers,

Michael

[bob lembke]

Really must be a "5", with the enhanced scan.

Schlachten und Gefechte has these entries for the engagements that 45. RD had (there were others, but none between these dates). 5. 9. 16. to 26. 11. 16: with the 1st Army on the Somme.

Next: 16. 5. 17. to 8. 12. 17. : Positional warfare on the Heights of the Maas with Army Group C - On the Maas Heights by Combres, Les Esparges and on the Grand-Tranchee-de-Calonne.

This does not mean that the unit did not fight between these dates. I think this source is accurate but hardly comprehensive, it hardly lists every unit's every engagement; if it were it would be 10,000 pages long, not 560 pages. It was published in 1919 by the Great General Staff.

Having studied 100 - 200 pieces of WW I Feldpost, and having fooled about with these German Feldpost enthusiasts, and having received some of their newsletters, I still find it hard to believe that a Prussian post-office took this piece of mail. Well, anything is possible. But I can not recall seeing a piece of Prussian Feldpost after early 1915 with no Absender block, and the Kurrent address is also against postal regulations. Supposedly, other parts of Germany adopted mandatory "modern" addressing as late as 1930.

Jack's comments are right on. You spend an hour transliterating and translating one, and they almost invariably say "the socks are warm, the food sucks, with heartfelt greetings, Harry". The Feldpost between my father and grand-father were better than most; the latter, a serious type, wanted info, like local weather and crop conditions, and some military stuff. Pop never mentioned flame warfare, probably forbidden, but mentioned what a pain it was to deal with oil on your uniform. Likewise my g-f never specifically mentioned the 30.5 and 42 cm guns he worked with, but mentioned the "heavy" (30.5 cm mortars) and "heaviest" (42 cm howitzers) guns, roughly giving their shell weights in Centners. January 3, 1915 my g-f wrote from northern Russia, from my memory: "Well, I finally have a billet. But I am freezing. The house has no windows. When we took this town I had to use my big guns, and I broke every window in town. And I left my cute little stove in Belgium." (They were not "his" guns, but he was responsible for all ammo supply to the corps, and, as an old artillery NCO, he had a possessive attitude to these remarkable guns. He had an aide, who probably could take care of a lot of the "day-to-day"; and certainly in Belgium, and perhaps in Russia, he spent a lot of time with these big guns.)

My father's later letters were obsessive about food, already in late 1916. Getting bombed (rarely successfully) at night in barracks also was an annoyance, often mentioned.

Jack mentioned those nasty purple indelible pencils; my g-f was always at his son, telling him to write with proper ink, but I suspect that it was not that practical at the front.

Credit must go to egbert for the enhancement of the PC, not I..

The last line of the square postal stamp is critical, but really hard to translate. However, don't I see: (x means illegible) "xx. M. ----" or "xxx. M. ----" What might the M. be? This business is sort of like my trying to read the inscriptions on badly corroded Roman coins, when I actively collected them. Once I spent three months (not full time!) trying to decypher the Latin on a single coin (the Latin was typically highly abbreviated, and run together with no punctuation or spaces), only to find that it was Greek written in Latin letters. It was my first "Greek Imperial". This stuff is fun, better than cross-words.

Michael - The card was sent; was processed at the local unit level, went to the divisional-level post office, and was cancelled on the indicated date (Oct. 28, 1916?) at between 9 and 10 in the morning. Unless the divisional HQ was suddenly over-run.

Bob Lembke

[egbert]

The last line of the square postal stamp is critical, but really hard to translate. However, don't I see: (x means illegible) "xx. M. ----" or "xxx. M. ----" What might the M. be?

Michael - The card was sent; was processed at the local unit level, went to the divisional-level post office, and was cancelled on the indicated date (Oct. 28, 1916?) at between 9 and 10 in the morning. Unless the divisional HQ was suddenly over-run.

Bob Lembke

I believe with a color scan we can see more details on the blue square stamp. It usually begins with xy Kompanie , InfRgt xy; instead of an "M" you can opt for a "K". Anyway the square stamp may start in first line with either initials S.B. or E.B. (Standardbrief and Eilbrief???)

[egbert]

..and an example for EB

[egbert]

Michael - The card was sent; was processed at the local unit level, went to the divisional-level post office, and was cancelled on the indicated date (Oct. 28, 1916?) at between 9 and 10 in the morning. Unless the divisional HQ was suddenly over-run.

Bob Lembke

...and don't forget the Battalion-,Regimental- and Corps- Post office; here is an example for Bn and Corps

..

[bob lembke]

Many thanks, egbert!

In your last scan, you show the circular (usually) regimental stamp, which is missing in our PC. That would have told a lot.

Your rectangular stamp samples, have the "S. B.", while I remember lots of "S. M."'s. (This is the first of the two lines.) What do they mean? (So many questions, so little time!)

I still maintain that this is an odd PC.

It might be mentioned that such PC can often be bought for $2-3, and most of them have clearer unit/sender information.. I slipped out of the collection/study activity on these, but it is fascinating.

It would be useful also to read the address. Some of it is obvious, some of it unclear.

Bob Lembke

[GrandsonMichael]

Egbert, my apologies for mixing you up with Bob, though somehow I don’t have the impression that either of you gentlemen are put out in the slightest…(I think I got trunk-ated).Thanks for the enhancement. It does help after all. You guys have given me lots of information for further research. Microscope & magnifying glass me thinks.

One thing still really bothers me:

The card was sent; was processed at the local unit level, went to the divisional-level post office, and was cancelled on the indicated date (Oct. 28, 1916?) at between 9 and 10 in the morning. Unless the divisional HQ was suddenly over-run.

So the postcard is rather a mystery. I wonder if it is possible to find out if the Div. H.Q. was indeed overrun. What I also cannot really grasp is that this postcard was in the possession of a soldier who didn’t join the Field Ambulance until June 1917. The mystery deepens…..

Bob is pretty adamant that a postcard like this one, not stamped according to regulations, could hardly have been accepted. What if it was indeed rejected after it was stamped, and the owner kept it unsent in his possession. He was wounded in the Canadian trench raid somewhere in 1917 and still had it with him. Very far fetched, I admit, but how else can we explain the long time lapse?

It would be useful also to read the address. Some of it is obvious, some of it unclear.

I'll keep on trying to decipher the rest with the aid of the downloaded characters.

Cheers,

Michael

[egbert]

Michael, the postcard 100% run!!!! Only if it is out of the hand of the sender, the P.O. Sergeant will stamp it properly. Don't you ever believe in Prussian Germany a Post Office official will do anything against the regulations!

Believe it or not i was sitting about 15 minutes trying to decipher the profession of the recipient (the profession was usually adressed after the "An"{To} and before the actual name) to no avail - grrr, the sender has a very mean and bad handwriting, he should go back to school instead into trenches

[bob lembke]

Michael,

First of all, since the sender never entered the Absender block (which would have his last name, possibly first or initial, rank, and units from possibly below the platoon level perhaps to the regimental level; the PC could never have gotten back to him.

I don't think I ever heard of a German divisional HQ being overrun in the war, except possibly in the last month, and if as we hypothisise (sp?) it was sent to a quiet sector to recuperate it would even be less likely. I would think after cancellation most mail would have been gone in a few hours. If the HQ was about to be overrun the men would have better things to do than stamp mail.

Speaking of specialized collections (were we?), I used to correspond with a Danish professor who collected German Feldpost that had been stamped (like the circular stamp on the PC) with American cancellation machines of a certain make and model which had been sold to the Belgians and put to use in German military post offices. The guy had thousands of PCs and letters, which he was putting into a computer data base. He could look at a PC or letter envelope and often know what make and model of machine had been used to stamp it, and when and how the Germans had modified the machine.

Bob Lembke

[Jack Sheldon]

It's about time we tried to make something of the writing. The lines represent the gaps (still the majority) in the text, but I find doing it this way sometimes enables me to get at the rhythm of the card and make some guesses. This all comes with the usual health warning on accuracy, but it looks as though it may be on the following lines:

1. Walter is greeted or thanked for something (letter /card /package)

2. The writer is currently (somewhere/doing something)

3. The writer has recovered from something and is well

4. The writer makes a wish for the recipient, or someone else they both know

5. The writer signs off (that's all for now/ love/best wishes)

Signature

The function or title on the top line of the address is obscure. If it does begin 'M', it's a non-standard letter. It could end ...fuehrer'

Text:

Lieber Walter fuer _____

___ ___ ___ _____

_______ ___ ___ ich

mich zwischen _________

___ _____ _____

und besser ____________

Jetzt bin ich __________

____________ gesund

____ ___ _______

Zunaechst? ___ ________

Herbert?

Give it a go. We may be able crack it together.

Jack

[GrandsonMichael]

This is quite unacceptable, I mean, being defeated by the Prussian bureaucracy…it’s just not done. On the other hand they slipped up didn’t they, PC is not according to all the rules and regulations….wonder whether the poststampman was distracted by der Willy & his flamethrowers? …

Believe it or not i was sitting about 15 minutes trying to decipher the profession of the recipient

I believe…didn’t realise it is his profession, though wondered at the length of the word.

I simply refuse to admit defeat. More (daren’t even say the word for fear of twisting my tongue) hypothesising (says my spellchecker, so you nearly got it right), My friend’s Grandfather of the 5th Can. Field Ambulance, apparently had his weight checked whilst in Germany in 1918 – see attachments – so perhaps our mystery card sender, or the recipient of it, gave it to GF personally after the war….

Thought I’d share the photo I referred to before, with you: here.

Thanks guys for all the information, very much appreciated.

Cheers, Michael

[GrandsonMichael]

Hi Jack,

Thanks, that's great! I'll get cracking right away...

Michael

P.S. This wasn't too difficult to translate....

[GrandsonMichael]

Very interesting Jack,

I used more or less the same method as you yesterday and came up with the following guesswork:

Lieber Walter fuer _____

___ ___ ___ _____

Hoffentlich freut Sich ihr

mich zwischen _________

___ _____ _____

und besser ____________

Jetzt bin ich __________

____________ gesund

mein ___ _______

Zunaechst? ___ ________

Herbert?

An. Mul

Walter Schultz

in Beggerow

Demmin

N. Vorpommern?

Michael

[bob lembke]

I'll take a run at some of this; I will just add possible extensions onto each line of Michael's in italics.

Very interesting Jack,

I used more or less the same method as you yesterday and came up with the following guesswork:

Lieber Walter fuer _____

___ ___ ___ _____ ich bin eine ______

Hoffentlich freut Sich ihr (I seem to get Hoffenlich ; could he have mis-spelled it? I see no "t".)

mich zwischen _________

___ _____ _____ dein Paket erhalten (a common phrase in these PCs and letters!)

und besser ____________

Jetzt bin ich __________ Jetzt bin ich nach

____________ gesund

mein ___ _______ Nun S_it ???

Zunaechst? ___ ________ __________ am hu___ (I don't necessarily get Zunaechst. Isn't the 3rd letter a "g"?)

Herbert?

An. Mul

Walter Schultz

in Beggerow

Demmin

N. Vorpommern?

Michael

I don't know how useful that was. I am only so-so at this; haven't done much in a couple of years. When I did about 50 family letters, mostly my father, my grand-father, and my father's sister, I got really good with them; if you read say 20 letters from one person you learn the quirks everyone had in their own version of script.

Probably by nesessity (sp?), these posting windows have really cr-py little word processors behind them.

Bob Lembke