Guest G Walton Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 My Grandfather Willie Hemingway Clay, was in a horse artillery regiment in Palestine. He lived in St Albans Herts. and left me photos of him in 'Salibury Plain 1911 (dress uniform) 'Bury St Edmunds 1915 field dress, On horseback 'Serapeum Suez Canal 1917, and a portrait shot in 'Cairo 1917'. Does anyone know the regiment. I do not have any medals or papers. Thank you. G Walton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hi G, welcome to the forum, From what you've posted it's possible that your grandfather served with the Herts and Northants Battery of the RFA, territorial Force. In 1915 they were concentrated in the Bury St Edmunds area, before going out to Palestine. You may want to run his name through the National Archives online medal index cards: I did a quick search, and found this: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=1 Perhaps your grandfather? Good luck, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Walton Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hi G, welcome to the forum, From what you've posted it's possible that your grandfather served with the Herts and Northants Battery of the RFA, territorial Force. In 1915 they were concentrated in the Bury St Edmunds area, before going out to Palestine. You may want to run his name through the National Archives online medal index cards: I did a quick search, and found this: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=1 Perhaps your grandfather? Good luck, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Jim, That number seems like a Regular RFA number not a Territorial one... The man above is certainly a Territorial. Did you (Jim) check the Nominal Roll in the Northants Book? I would imagine he was in the Herts Battery though. There is a book available by J D Sainsbury on the Herts Battery in WW1. I have a copy at home, though I'm not sure if there is a nominal roll... I'll check. There is an Edward Clay in the Northants battery: Medal card of Clay, Edward Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Field Artillery 4382 Driver Royal Field Artillery 891258 Driver http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=2 Enlisted early 1915? A relative? Clay certainly rings a bell with regards to the Battery.... This man is a possibility: Medal card of Clay, William H Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Field Artillery 473 Gunner Royal Field Artillery 490038 Gunner http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=8 The 2nd number (490038) probably shouldn't exist as an Field Artillery number (only two men are recorded on the MICs with numbers in the 490xxx range. Either the number is wrong. Should it read 890038 and therefore be a Northants Battery number or is the regiment/corps wrong and should it read Labour Corps, for example? The numbers for 270 Brigade (Northants and Hertfordshire Batteries) lie in the range 890000 to 895000 by the way... My instinct is that the number is wrong, and that this could be our man, especially as his first number (pre-1917) is pretty low. Please excuse rambling... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Walton Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hi G, welcome to the forum, From what you've posted it's possible that your grandfather served with the Herts and Northants Battery of the RFA, territorial Force. In 1915 they were concentrated in the Bury St Edmunds area, before going out to Palestine. You may want to run his name through the National Archives online medal index cards: I did a quick search, and found this: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=1 Perhaps your grandfather? Good luck, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Done a bit more editing. Please re-read my post. Sorry, bad habit. Steve. PS just use the Fast Reply button at the bottom of the Page. It's easier than using Quote/Reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Just a bit more background off the top of my head. 'Serapeum Suez Canal 1917' : 270 Brigade (Herts & Northants) camped a Serapeum in February 1917 before setting out across the Sinai desert towards Palestine. The column crossed the Sinai Desert following a newly laid railway line and water pipeline as far as Romani (halfway across the desert) where the track was still being laid. The Brigade then slimmed down to a bare minimum to cross the rest of the desert to Rafa and to eventually fight in the First and Second Battles of Gaza in March and April 1917. The portrait in Cairo dated 1917 is interesting as the Brigade was I believe already at Suez by then. I believe that my own relative (Charles Brooksbank) arrived in Egypt in late 1916/early 1917 and travelled to join the unit. Could he have shipped out with Willie? Do any of your other photos show his shoulder title any clearer? It will be (top) T for Territorial, RFA, then the Brigade name. (Hertford or Northampton probably). Nevertheless, he is highly likely to be a 270 Brigade man... Let me check things before you buy an MIC, though. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Another reply! Looking at the sequence of numbers around 890038, there is a definite pattern of renumbering. (alright apart from the number next to him!) New number / Old number 890030 - 890031 459 890032 - 890033 - 890034 465 890035 466 890036 - 890037 13 890038 Not taken by another man... 890039 474 890040 475 890041 477 890042 478 890043 479 890044 - 890045 No overseas service ? 890046 492 890047 No overseas service ? 890048 498 890049 501 890038 should therfore have originally been a number between 466 and 474. William H Clay's number is 473. I am therefore 95% convinced that this is your grandfather. I believe that most of the 890xxx numbers are for the Hertfordshire "A" battery, whereas "B" battery (Northamptonshire) were 891xxx. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIDMED Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 My Grandfather Willie Hemingway Clay, was in a horse artillery regiment in Palestine. He lived in St Albans Herts. and left me photos of him in 'Salibury Plain 1911 (dress uniform) 'Bury St Edmunds 1915 field dress, On horseback 'Serapeum Suez Canal 1917, I think your man was in the Herts RFA if he was the following will take you as far as Suez canal 1916/17, will give you a good idea of what your man was up to. By Sept 1914 the 1st Northhants, 1 & 2nd Herts Btys had been embodied and mobilised for active service overseas with the 273rd (CCLXXIII) brigade which at this time was part of the territorial 54th (East Anglian) divisional Royal Field Artillery. The 54th Division was a pre war formation created by the demise of the old volunteer system and the establishment of the Territorial Force in 1908. During the war the 54th Division’s infantry Brigades moved to Gallipoli, landing at Suvla Bay on the 10th August 1915, the three Divisional Artillery Brigades remained in England. By December 1916 reforms to the field artillery had ment the disbandment of the heavy brigades at divisional level with the heavy’s being reorganised and controlled by Corps commanders .The divisional artillery compliment of four brigades was reduced to three, here we must note the CCLXXIII (273rd) brigade remained with the 54th division and was renumbered and designated CCLXX (270th) brigade. The boys were awfully proud of there RFA status, One must note to the consternation of all ranks the batteries of the brigade once relieved of there heavy artillery took up a R.H.A roll and were trained by R.H.A batteries of the E.E.F to attack at the gallop with 18 pdr's . Needless to say this brigade became a 1st class unit and quite fearless in action on the western coast of Palestine. By November 1915 the Artillery was assembled at Thetford in Norfolk and made ready to move independently to France. On the 16th and 17th the brigades entrained and moved by rail to Southampton the vanguard arriving at 2.00pm on the 16th, the last elements to arrive at the docks detrained the next day at 3.00pm on the 17th. The brigades were split into two groups the first embarked on the SS.S.W. Miller, the second on the SS. City Of Benares .On the 17th the sea was calm and the moon was bright as the transports were escorted across the channel to La Havre. The Miller landed at La Havre the next day but the Benares was delayed and had wait offshore for some time before landing the next morning, the last troops had disembarked by 12.30pm on the 19th. On landing at La Havre the CCLXXIII Brigade consisted of a Brigade H.Q, 1ST and 2nd Hertfordshire batteries, the 1st Northampton Battery, the East Anglian heavy battery and Brigade ammunition Column. Under orders of the 33rd (service) Division the brigade immediately marched to billets at La Croquet, on the night of the 22nd the troops stayed overnight at Morbecque. By the 24th the brigade arrived at billets at Thiennes, On the 26th of November the brigade was handed over to General Officer Commanding, Royal Artillery, 47th (London) division and marched to billets at Lieres. Later that day the brigade fired it first shots in anger during the Great War, the 1st Herts Battery in action in support of 47th division east of Vermelles. On the 10th of January 1916 the brigade was ordered to Lillers, the move to be made in two groups . The next day the troops marched to Berguette railhead and entrained for Marseilles. The CCLXXIII brigade strength on the 11th of January was. 15 Officers 288 Other Ranks At this time the 54th divisional artillery was ordered to rejoin its division’s infantry brigades who by February had arrived in Egypt after service in the Gallipoli campaign. On the 23rd of February the brigade embarked on the SS. Andania and sailed from Marseilles for Egypt arriving at Alexandra on the 9th March. By the end March the 54th Divisional artillery had again been assembled at Mena camp near Cairo, by the end of May the brigade had moved east here they would man the southern defences of the Suez canal. On the 28th of May the 270th (CCLXX) brigade relieved 4th Australian divisional artillery and took over the defence of Serapeum on the east bank of the canal. Here the routine of garrison duties began, gun position were dug and guns registered. At this time C battery (4.5-inch Howitzers) was in positions at El- Ferdan near the railhead east of Ismalia and Moascar camps. Throughout the rest of 1916 the troops manned the south eastern defences of the Suez canal The weeks were marked with training and lectures and in August and September the brigade guns took a prominent role in a live fire exercises with H.M.S Scarab and H.M.S Ladybird, noted were several hostile aircraft In Jan 1917 the 54th and the 53rd divisions were relived of there garrison duties on the Suez canal and at Moascar camp Throughout February 1917 preparations were made for the march east to positions south of Gaza. On the 25th the brigade arrived and took up defensive positions at El Arish Lieutenant-Colonel H. Sowler commanding . Sir Archibald Murray ordered the first assults on Gaza “the gateway to Palestine”. the 53rd division with the 54th division in support to assault and encircle Gaza on the 26th of March. The start line for the attack was to be approximately two miles south of Gaza, On the 8th the CCLXX brigade had been grouped with the 162nd infantry brigade.This fine territorial infantry brigade in part comprised the 1/10th London and the 1/ 4th Northamptonshire Regiments, by the 25th the brigades batteries were well forward with the infantry at positions east of Deir El Bela. .The Commander in chief E.E.F was instructed to relieve the Turkish threat to Egypt and Suez, then push east with a view to establishing a forward start line for major offensive operations in Palestine during the autumn. The objective would be to take Gaza with its plentiful supply of fresh water. the rest of the campaign is very interesting and well worth following up. Hope of some use Tom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hey, that's what I was going to say.... Too much to do, too little time... Cheers, Tom. A very good summary. Might just use that myself! Do you have any details of later drafts to the Brigade during 1916, i.e. those that didn't go to France. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Walton Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hi G, welcome to the forum, From what you've posted it's possible that your grandfather served with the Herts and Northants Battery of the RFA, territorial Force. In 1915 they were concentrated in the Bury St Edmunds area, before going out to Palestine. You may want to run his name through the National Archives online medal index cards: I did a quick search, and found this: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=1 Perhaps your grandfather? Good luck, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Walton Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hello Gentlemen My apologies for not mastering the reply system better. I am overwelmed by your replies and research on my behalf. The information is facinating. My grandfather was a changed man from his experiences in the war and on returning gave up a lucrative career in the print to become a mental health nurse at 'Hill End Hospital St Albansl' where I understand many of his comrades ended up. He may have done more gallant deeds after the war than during it. I am deeply grateful for the information you have given me. Regards Garry Walton garry.walton@virgin.net PS Not sure what a MIC is, I will look at badge detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Sorry, MIC = Medal Index Card. It shows the campaign medal Entitlement of the soldier for his service overseas. Also, if they went overseas before 31-12-1915 it will give the date and the "Theatre of War" they went to first. If you look at the link to the Long, Long Trail there is an explanation of the Cards in the Genealogy section. I am pretty much convinced that "William H Clay" with number "490038" is your grandfather. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Walton Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Just a bit more background off the top of my head. 'Serapeum Suez Canal 1917' : 270 Brigade (Herts & Northants) camped a Serapeum in February 1917 before setting out across the Sinai desert towards Palestine. The column crossed the Sinai Desert following a newly laid railway line and water pipeline as far as Romani (halfway across the desert) where the track was still being laid. The Brigade then slimmed down to a bare minimum to cross the rest of the desert to Rafa and to eventually fight in the First and Second Battles of Gaza in March and April 1917. The portrait in Cairo dated 1917 is interesting as the Brigade was I believe already at Suez by then. I believe that my own relative (Charles Brooksbank) arrived in Egypt in late 1916/early 1917 and travelled to join the unit. Could he have shipped out with Willie? Do any of your other photos show his shoulder title any clearer? It will be (top) T for Territorial, RFA, then the Brigade name. (Hertford or Northampton probably). Nevertheless, he is highly likely to be a 270 Brigade man... Let me check things before you buy an MIC, though. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Walton Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Gentlemen Is this uniform pic any help Regards Garry Walton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Not really, as none of the insignia are clear. I think from his locations and his "home base" that we are fairly certain that he served with the Hertfordshire Battery of 270 Brigade (formerly 273 brigade). Nearly all Territorials joined a Regiment close to home as they were part time soldiers before the war. By the way, do you know the names of any of his comrades? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Walton Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Sorry Steve I will ask my mother for any recollections. I got a medal card PDF from the National Archives link that Jim sent. Is it possible to get a certificate or a copy of his victory medal? Thank you very much for your help. Regards Garry Walton Pic is W H Clay, Serapeum, Suez Canal 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G Walton Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Last picture Studio shot, nearly destroyed Regards Garry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Garry, I think that Steve is more likely to be correct with the "Clay" that he identified rather than the one I first thought. A while back Steve kindly made me a copy of the history of the Northants Battery. It does include a list of men serving with the battery, there's a Driver C.E. Clay, 4382 who was discharged 31/3/1920. However itt looks that the Herts lads are not listed, so unlikely this is your man. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Reading my Hertfordshire Battery book, it states that when the TF artillery where renumbered and the connections with County batteries diluted it was decided that Hertfordshire men would be number 890xxx and Northamptonshire men 891xxx. This was done on the 26th February 1917. Jim is correct in saying that the Nominal Roll in the "B" Battery /270 Brigade book are only Northants men. (These were originally numbered 4xxx and later 891xxx as stated). Hertfordshire men were originally numbered in numbers under 1000 and renumbered 890xxx. There is no nominal roll in the Hertfordshire book unfortunately. There is a picture of the 2nd Hertfordshire battery in 1912 (I think) which has three men on it who could be you men from the first post. I'll post a copy. I agree with Jim in that I don't think that the card you have already got is the right man. The men you posted in the first picture are definitely Territorial men due to the T on the shoulder title. If it says that he went overseas before November 1915 it certainly won't be a Herts Battery man.... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIDMED Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Hello Steve "Hey, that's what I was going to say...." So Sorry .... I don,t have info with regards unit home service. i can offer a list of officer;s & battery strengths (When Bde sailed from France for Egypt.) Will dig-out if you need it. The Bde war diaries survived in good order and are well kept, many maps and battery musters well worth a look if you get down to the PRO. Best regards Tom.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Thanks, Tom. The War diary is my No. 1 priority next time I make it down to the NA. Looking forward to it. Do you have the correct reference for 270 Brigade from 1916 through 1919 as the last time I looked the Catalogue seemed to be a bit ambiguous on which Diary was which... Was just looking for a possible date that the battery would have been reinforced on late in 1916 or early 1917. My great-uncle was officially too young to go to France when the battery first went but probably went over in late 1916 since he would have been 19 in early 1917 and he is listed with a pre-renumber number. Hijack of Topic over, Thanks. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIDMED Posted 8 December , 2005 Share Posted 8 December , 2005 Hello Steve Researched the Brigade sometime ago & can’t find the ref for 270 bde, I don’t remember any problems, you will have no trouble finding it via the WO 95 catalogue im sure. I still have several pages from the diary......& will have another look through my notes.... Again hi-jack over Very best OF luck Tom....... p.s Northants Bty HQ, Peterborough . August 1914.....Major or Captain, with a Captain as Second-in-Command, and 3 Lieutenants in charge of 2-gun sections. Battery establishment also included a Battery Sergeant-Major, a Battery Quartermaster Sergeant, a Farrier-Sergeant, 4 Shoeing Smiths , 2 Saddlers, 2 Wheelers, 2 Trumpeters, 7 Sergeants, 7 Corporals, 11 Bombardiers, 75 Gunners, 70 Drivers and 10 Batmen. The standard weapon after 1915 which did not alter during the war, were the 18-lbr Q.F field gun, and the 4.5-inch howitzer. Needless to say the Bty compliment never reached such dizy hights & the above could at times account for the whole brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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