Death of Capt. Bowes-Lyon

[truthergw]

In "Most Unfavourable Ground", Niall Cherry has the late Queen Mother's brother being killed in the attack on Hill 70. Am I correct in thinking that this was 9th Battalion Black Watch whereas Capt Bowes-Lyon served with the 8th. I believe he was lost in the attack on the Hohenzollern Redoubt.

[9th Black Watch]

The 9th Bn. attacked Hill 70 on 25 September.

Bowes-Lyon was 8th Bn. Wauchope's 'History' describes his death on the 27th as follows.

At dawn next morning [the 27th] it became clear that the 73rd Brigade in front were in difficulties, and men were observed falling back. Very shortly German bombs were seen bursting in Hohenzollern Redoubt and close to Little Willie Trench, and it was obvious that Fosse No. 8 had been lost and that the enemy was rapidly regaining hold upon the Redoubt itself. Lieutenant-Colonel Cameron of Lochiel then ordered a force of 70 men of The Black Watch and 30 Cameron Highlanders under Captain Bowes-Lyon, commanding B company, 8th Black Watch, to advance to the redoubt and to rally any men seen retiring. This advance was carried out, and the enemy were prevented from advancing further; but about 10.30 a.m. Captain Bowes-Lyon and Lieutenant C.O.C. MacIntosh were both kiled by enemy bombs.

Hope this helps,

Derek

Edited 2 December , 2005 by 9th Black Watch

[truthergw]

The 9th Bn. attacked Hill 70 on 25 September.

Bowes-Lyon was 8th Bn. Wauchope's 'History' describes his death on the 27th as follows.

At dawn next morning [the 27th] it became clear that the 73rd Brigade in front were in difficulties, and men were observed falling back. Very shortly German bombs were seen bursting in Hohenzollern Redoubt and close to Little Willie Trench, and it was obvious that Fosse No. 8 had been lost and that the enemy was rapidly regaining hold upon the Redoubt itself. Lieutenant-Colonel Cameron of Lochiel then ordered a force of 70 men of The Black Watch and 30 Cameron Highlanders under Captain Bowes-Lyon, commanding B company, 8th Black Watch, to advance to the redoubt and to rally any men seen retiring. This advance was carried out, and the enemy were prevented from advancing further; but about 10.30 a.m. Captain Bowes-Lyon and Lieutenant C.O.C. MacIntosh were both kiled by enemy bombs.

Hope this helps,

Derek

Thanks Derek. I thought I had it right but couldn't believe that Niall had slipped. My GF was in 8th.B.W. Wounded and captured 25th.

[PhilB]

As a matter of interest, Capt Hon Malcolm Bowes-Lyon rejoined 2nd Life Gds in Aug 1914, having resigned his commission in 1907. He was a brother of 14th Earl of Strathmore and uncle of the Queen Mother. He later commanded 5th Black Watch. Phil B

[Moriaty]

In Gerald Gliddon's book "The Aristocracy and the Great War" it says:

" A Sgt Robert Lindsay, a witness to Fergus' death, wrote a letter to the family in which he filled in the details. After two days and nights of fighting in the Loos area the Battalion returned to Brigade for a break (27 September). As they were getting their breakfasts organised Fergus appeared with a piece of paper which was an order for them to immediately return to the area around the Hohenzollern Redoubt. Some of the men were able to finish breakfast, but others weren't. The Sergeant Major was drunk. In going up to the German trench named Little Willie several bombs landed at Fergus' feet and shattered one of his legs. Then he was hit by bullets in the chest and shoulder. He collapsed into Sergeant Hill's arms and died soon after. Lindsay also sent a bullet home to his family which had been removed from Fergus' arm. Fergus' name is commemorated on the Loos Memorial, panel 78-83.

"The WO informed the family that Fergus' body had not been recovered by January 1916, but on 9 June wrote saying that his grave had been found in a quarry in Vermelles. In November 1918 the Strathmores had further news of Fergus' grave, from their son-in-law Lord Elphinstone. He reported that he had been in the area of the Hohenzollern Redoubt and had come across 'The Quarry' a well known spot in the British system near Vermelles near 'The Craters'. Here he saw several officers' graves which had been wiped out and other graves blown up over the previous three years. However, he did identify the grave of Fergus. Today though the grave is not listed in the cemetery register. However, there is is little doubt that the remains of Fergus Bowes-Lyon still lie in Quarry Cemetery."

The book mentions that of the 14th Earl's family (the late Queen Mother's father), of the eight children who survived until 1914, four of the sons were old enough to serve and in addition the three Earl'2 brothers also took part.

Moriaty

[gerrard]

Could someone please tell me the name rank and Number of the late Queen Mothers brother who was killed during the great war. Cheers

[Jaycee33]

BOWES-LYON, The Hon. FERGUS

Initials: F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Captain

Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Age: 26

Date of Death: 27/09/1915

Additional information: Son of 14th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, of Glamis Castle, Forfarshire; husband of Lady Christian Bowes-Lyon (now Lady Christian Martin). Educated at Eton. Previously served with 2nd Bn. in India. (Queen Mother's brother).

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 78 to 83.

Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

My uncle Tommy is in good company!

John

[PBI]

BOWES-LYON, The Hon. FERGUS

Initials: F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Captain

Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Age: 26

Date of Death: 27/09/1915

Additional information: Son of 14th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, of Glamis Castle, Forfarshire; husband of Lady Christian Bowes-Lyon (now Lady Christian Martin). Educated at Eton. Previously served with 2nd Bn. in India. (Queen Mother's brother).

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 78 to 83.

Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

My uncle Tommy is in good company!

John

Also Commemorated on The Buxted War memorial in Sussex.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Is he not mentioned on any war memorial in Scotland in the Glamis Castle area.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Gerard,

Fergus was a Captain in the 8th (Service) Bn of The Black Watch. He has no Regimental Number as officers did not have one. He died leading a counter attack at the Hohenzollern Redoubt at the Battle of Loos in September 1915. Fergus' body was never recovered and is commemorated on the Black Watch panel at Dud Corner outside the village of Loos.

The Queen Mother was tremendously affected by the loss of her brother. Many of her family members served in the regiment, and it was no secret that she had a great affinity for the regiment. Fergus previously served in the 2nd Bn The Black Watch. There is a great picture of Fergus leading the counter attack in the Great War section of Balhousie Castle. The late Alfred Anderson, Scotland's oldest man, was Fergus' 'Bat Man'.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

PS - Enclosed a picture of Fergus' etching on the wall at Dud Corner

[roy litchfield]

The Hon. Fergus Bowes Lyon is the third name on the war memorial at Whitwell & St. Paul's Walden in Hertfordshire.

St. Paul's Walden Bury was one of the homes of his parents, the Earl and Countess of Strathmore.

Best wishes Roy

[whitehound]

Does anybody know, would this have just been B company whom Fergus ordered back to the ridge, or the whole battalion?

I ask because my great grandfather George Shirran was there, but there seems to be some confusion as to whether he was in B or C Company.

I'm trying to find out what the 8th Battalion were doing before the Battle of Loos, from mid May to mid September 1915, and in the weeks immediately after Loos: does anybody know?

[dundeesown]

1915 Landed France 10th May--Armentiers,Festubert,Le Plantin,Givenchy,Hohenzollern Sector--Battle Of Loos.

"At 5 am on September 28th the Battalion was withdrawn to the reserve,on the 4th of October the 8th moved into the front line between the Ypres-Courtai railway and the Ypres-Courtrai canal,taking over trenches 33,.34 and 35.

(HOTBW)

Gary.

[whitehound]

Thanks. So would they have been in combat in Armentiers,Festubert,Le Plantin,Givenchy,Hohenzollern prior to the battle of Loos or - as Reserves - would they have been behind the front lines prior to Loos?

[dundeesown]

June 29th in Brigade reserve ( South of Le Touret ),4th July D company relieved the reserve company of the 5th Camerons (Festubert)next day remaining companies relieved the other Cameron companies in the front line,due east of Festubert,on this its first tour,its first of trench warfare,the 8th suffered lightly,losing only three men killed and seven wounded.

14th July relieved the 11th Royal Scots in the line east of Le Plantin.August 1st whole Battalion returned to billets north west of Locon.Between August 6th and 16th the Battalion occupied the front line about midway between Le Plantin and Festubert relieving the 12th Royal Scots.17th a move to billets at Robecq.September 2nd relieved Battalion of Loyal North Lancashire Regiment between Annequin and Vermelles.7th Sept. moved to Bethune,11the sept to billets in Sailly Labourse,moved to front line Y4 sector on the 15th then on the 18th to Bethune.On the 20th in the front line Y4 sector and on the 21st four day bombardment,prelude to Battle Of Loos.(HOTBW)

The short version.

Gary.

[ARMAGH]

10 May 1915 The 8th Bn Black Watch departure for France.

The Company orbat for B Coy was OC Capt HM Burnett,CSM F.Fraser,CQMS G.Shirran Page4/5 of Major-General Wauchope, History of the Black Watch.There is no mention of CQMS Shirran changing Coys during 1915.

Joe

[whitehound]

Brilliant - that must be where Black Jock got it from. So if George Shirran was indeed in C company when he re-enlisted - as per The Scotsman at Decemebr 1914 - he must have been moved to B Company when he went out to France. And he really would have been serving directly with Fergus Bowes-Lyon, and was one of the people who got hauled away from their breakfasts and sent into battle with a drunk Sergeant Major!

Would that be the Regimental SM or the Company SM? The company one, presumably. If the RQMS is second only to the RSM among NCOs, does that mean that at company level the CQMS is next after the CSM?

I'm thinking that George Shirran probably had to compensate for the fact that his immediate superior was blotto, and that this contributed both to his being sent home at the end of October - he must have been knackered - and to his being promoted to RQMS the following spring.

Perhaps, also, that was where the confusion which led to his being described on hios daughter's marriage certificate as an RSM came in. Maybe she'd heard a confused rumour about his ahving to serve as emergency understudy to the drunk CSM.

[ARMAGH]

"one of the people who got hauled away from their breakfasts and sent into battle with a drunk Sergeant Major!"

CQMS company quarter master sgt, would have made sure breakfast was being served to the troops,do,nt ferget the breakfast will have been brought up the line from the rear where the Battalion cookhouse would be.(part of his duties would be to ensure that the company is supplied with food & drink,tea and do,nt ferget the rum issue)

So the CQMS would not have been in the squad,also when men go up the line for recce or fighting they would leave quite a bit of kit behind,the CQMS & staff would look after it.

As for the letter home,saying the CSM is drunk, do,nt read to much into that,CSM normally stays with Coy HQ, where the Company Commander is,but would be used if the huns were coming over the trenches.

Regimental Sergent Major RSM he is responsible for the Battalion discipline, Ammo etc, next in line could be the RQMS, but a CSM could stand in for the RSM.

Company Sergent Major CSM he is responsible for the Company discipline, Ammo etc, next in line could be the CQMS.

hope that helps.

[whitehound]

So George wouldn't have been part of the actual charge?

[Black Jock]

As a matter of interest, Capt Hon Malcolm Bowes-Lyon rejoined 2nd Life Gds in Aug 1914, having resigned his commission in 1907. He was a brother of 14th Earl of Strathmore and uncle of the Queen Mother. He later commanded 5th Black Watch. Phil B

Phil,

As far as I am aware the 5th were never commanded by a Bowes-Lyon between 1914 and 18. Where did you get the information?

Tom