Raster Scanning Posted 19 August , 2003 Share Posted 19 August , 2003 Can someone help me identify this jacket. It has what appear to be contemporary patches on the upper arm and standard bar type CANADA shoulder titles. The collar dogs are 39th Battalion and the buttons are Canada pattern. There is no paper label or other markings that I can see. The shape of the pocket flaps puzzles me. Is this a jacket that was worn by the Canadians in WW1? If it is I suspect it has been tailored by the owner. I do not know if the patches represent the 39th Battalion, or a higher formation maybe? Your thoughts are appreciated. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 19 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2003 Collar Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 19 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2003 Inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 19 August , 2003 Share Posted 19 August , 2003 Hi John I'm no expert, not even a novice, at uniform and equipment, but Osprey 164 "The Canadian Army at War" seems to show at least two jackets with pockets flaps of similar shape. It's a photo on P.9 - the caption reads:- "Group of Canadian troops June 1916. At least two wear the badge of the 15th Bn. (48th Highlanders of Canada). The remainder of the insignia and uniform is a motley selection typical of the soldier at the front". Stand by for the deluge of info from across the N Atlantic!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 19 August , 2003 Share Posted 19 August , 2003 I also am not an expert on uniforms, but two things puzzled me. First, the shoulder patches. Each Canadian division wore a rectangular patch of solid colour, and the one on your uniform most closely compares to the 2nd Div., which wore dark blue. (3rd Div had French gray, or a lighter blue). The red strip above the blue patch could possibly be a 5th Bde HQ flash, although it should be just as wide as the div patch. The other thing concerns the 39th Bn collar badges. The 39th never made it to France, serving as a reserve battalion in England. They were never part of the 2nd or 3rd Divs. Just some thoughts. Hopefully one of our more knowledgeable forum members can help us further. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 19 August , 2003 Share Posted 19 August , 2003 Not that I am more knowledgable, but I agree with Terry's diagnosis, both on the red strip being too small, and that the 39th never served in F&F. Joe Sweeney is our "go-to" man for uniforms; perhaps he can comment on the pockets flaps. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
182 CEF Posted 19 August , 2003 Share Posted 19 August , 2003 Watch out!! The CBC had lots of WW1 uniforms made for a show some years ago. They were very close to the real thing, I have seen a few with original buttons and badges sold. This one looks very like the ones made. I am not sure, however, it sure looks new to me. Dean Owen Whitby Canada Working in the film industry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 19 August , 2003 Share Posted 19 August , 2003 My first guess would be to support Dean's point. I don't think it is real. As for the shape of the pocket flaps. Canadian Service had pointed pocket flaps on the chest pockets. It also had a seven button front until 1917 when Canada adopted manufacture of British type SD Jackets (this is not one of these). Here is a link to "Canuck"---www.canadiansoldiers.com It shows a Canadian Service Dress jacket made after 1914. I can go into far greater detail on Canadian Service Dress if you like. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 20 August , 2003 Share Posted 20 August , 2003 I can go into far greater detail on Canadian Service Dress if you like. Hi Joe: I always appreciate your 'uniform' posts. I for one would like you to go into greater detail if you would please. I'll add your CEF uniform information to my files. Thanks. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 20 August , 2003 Share Posted 20 August , 2003 John Checked a Canadian publication I have on Uniforms of the CEF. As Joe said the original Jacket consisted of 7 buttons but had cut away pockets similar to yours, although the side pockets were not buttoned. The Canadians then adopted the British 5 button jacket but this had straight pocket flaps. I have a Canadian 5 button jacket and there is far less lining that in the one in the photograph. My personal opinion is that it is either an OR's jacket privately tailored for an officer to wear in the front line, or it is a repro. It certainly does not appear to have any wear and tear for something 80 odd years old. Still as long a silly money wasnt paid for it, its a nice representation. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 20 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2003 Thanks for all the replies. I have been collecting British uniforms and equipment for some years and was unsure about this jacket hence the question. It may look (and is) in good condition but it does have some mothing particularly on the patches. There is an embroidered Lewis Gunner badge on the lower left sleeve in the correct location. One way of checking for possible fakes is to take a small sample of the thread that holds the jacket together (and attaches the badges). Originals were held together with proper cotton this is hard to get now as modern cotton is synthetic. If it is held over a flame, cotton burns and turns to a sooty powder but synthetic cotton melts and bubbles while burning. The cotton from this jacket is confirmed as real and so is quite a few years old. This jacket came with a complete set of 08 Patt webbing that I am satisfied is genuine. The good condition pouches and helve handle attachments were what I was after so the jacket was a bonus. If it is a fake as seems likely, it is extremely well made and 'feels right'. Thanks again for all the help. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 20 August , 2003 Share Posted 20 August , 2003 I am not a collector of WWI uniforms but I do collect Soviet uniforms and have some experience of spotting fakes. I would hazard a guess that this is a reproduction. There is no wear of ageing on the tunic and it generally looks too new. If it is being touted as a repro then fine but if it is claimed to be original then forget it...it is just too new looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 20 August , 2003 Share Posted 20 August , 2003 Canadian ORs Service Dress was made official with GO 73 in 1903. The jacket had a 7 button Front, stand collar, four pockets, one belt hook and fixed shoulder straps edged in a complicated series of arm of service piping. In Aug 1913 the shoulder straps were changed to arm of service colored straps that were removable and attached to the jacket by string that would be looped through two holes in the shoulder. After war broke out the jackets straps were changed to perminent shoulder straps of drab. The first contingent were authorized to change these to arm of service colors. In fact the survivors of the first contingent were allowed (18 Dec 1916) to wear colored shoulder straps as a distinction of having been in the first contingent. These are rarely photograph but demob jackets are found with the color straps. The photo below shows a jacket that was made after the 1914 standardization to fixed straps. This pattern of jacket continued through 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 21 August , 2003 Share Posted 21 August , 2003 In 1916 the pattern of the 7 button changed with the addition of a fall collar, plan cuffs and rifle patches. By this time this jacket was obsolete the CEF having largely switched to British uniforms. I've never located a photo of Canadians wearing this type jacket outside of Canada. They being largely relegated to being issued as Demob jackets. The jacket on the the left was issued to Gunner Keigan of the 36th How Battery. It was issued to him in Canada after he was wounded in France in 1918. The collar has been tailored. Even though he had long left the 3rd Div he continued wearing the Div shoulder flashes. In fact Canadians were authorized to wear their Div Patches until 1929. Candian jackets with flashes are far more common than their British counter parts. The jacket on the right is unmodified except buttons were added the waist pocket. These jackets were also made with two belt hooks. This lining is pretty much standard for all 7 button jackets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 21 August , 2003 Share Posted 21 August , 2003 In 1917 Militia orders established the British pattern jacket as the norm. Canadain made jackets are very similar to the Brit pattern except the lining is usually a green or dark khaki. At first the jackets were to be made with only the small buttons (40 line)as found on 7 button jacket. This later was changed to the larger 60 line buttons for the five down the front. The jacket on the left (on dummy) is a British made jacket issued to Pte WG Chapman of the 27th Bn. The one on the right is 1917 dated Canadian made. I've also attached a photo showing the lining differences. The 4th Bn CMGC jacket is the British made one. John coat is? I don't think it is WWI Canadian but was not meant to be a forgery. The insignia is I believe added to deceive. The jacket might be 1920' or 30's. Certain Canadian Militia regiments had their own pattern jackets that differed with Standard patterns, but I don't believe this is one unless its again postwar. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 21 August , 2003 Share Posted 21 August , 2003 Hi Joe: Thanks for taking the time to post a detailed summary with pictures. I learned a lot about subject I knew nothing about. I appreciate your efforts. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 21 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 21 August , 2003 Hi Joe: Thanks for taking the time to post a detailed summary with pictures. I learned a lot about subject I knew nothing about. I appreciate your efforts. Seconded by me. Thanks Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 21 August , 2003 Share Posted 21 August , 2003 I apologize to those who hate this over-worked saying, but Joe Sweeney, yu da man!!! Thanks again for sharing your vast knowledge with us Pals. Peter in Vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 21 August , 2003 Share Posted 21 August , 2003 The level of knowledge astounds again and again on this forum. Great stuff. Take care, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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