Cemeteries and Memorials

[Peter Bennett]

one newspaper report stated that "A Catholic Priest was summoned to read her last rites"

Thanks for that Squirrel; what a lovely picture it conjures up

On my recent visit home I attended CofE evensong with my father; I would not have missed it for the world

But neither would I have missed coffee a few mornings later with the local ‘Father.’

He attended the same college as Father Finn who was killed on the first morning at Gallipoli, so we have more than a few common interests

What I am particularly proud of is that he refers to my father and I as his ‘Heretics’

Best regards

Michael D.R.

[Myrtle]

The bravest of them all ?? read his citations.

Rev Theodore Bayley Hardy, VC DSO MC

Stephen Louden's book has a couple of pages showing the photograph of Rev. Bailey being presented with the Victoria Cross by King George V and a painting of the same event by Terence Cuneo. Elizabeth Hardy was not happy that Cuneo had painted Rev. Bayley with mud on his boots as she had spent much of the previous evening polishing them.

[Audax]

one newspaper report stated that "A Catholic Priest was summoned to read her last rites"

Thanks for that Squirrel; what a lovely picture it conjures up

On my recent visit home I attended CofE evensong with my father; I would not have missed it for the world

But neither would I have missed coffee a few mornings later with the local ‘Father.’

He attended the same college as Father Finn who was killed on the first morning at Gallipoli, so we have more than a few common interests

What I am particularly proud of is that he refers to my father and I as his ‘Heretics’

Best regards

Michael D.R.

Reverend William Finn. (RC, Middlesbrough)

‘The Roman Catholic priests earned the confidence and respect of the whole army by their great devotion and self-sacrifice. One in particular must be mentioned, Father William Finn, who met his death at Seddul Bahr, in Gallipoli in the Great landing there. When the ship in which he arrived with the troops approached the shore he was urged not to attempt to land with the men under enemy shell fire. ‘A priest’s place is beside the dying soldier’. He replied. As he stepped on to the gangway he received a bullet through the chest. He kept on, notwithstanding, across the lighters, when two more bullets struck him, one in the thigh and another in the leg. To quote the description of a special correspondent who was present: ‘By the time he reached the beach he was literally riddled with bullets, but in spite of the great pain he must have been suffering he heroically went about his duties, giving consolation to the dying troops. It was while in he was in the act of attending to the spiritual requirements of one of his men that the priest’s head was shattered by shrapnel.’

Times History of the War, Vol 8, July 18th 1916. p.342 has a photographic portrait of Father Finn.

Edited 15 December , 2005 by Audax

[Audax]

Sassoon wrote, “……the padres never came near us -- except to bury

someone. (An exception was Maurice Peel, who was killed with our First

Battalion at Bullecourt in April 1917 -- a byword for bravery.)”

I believe this poem was written with Peel in mind.

PEEL, The Hon. MAURICE BERKELEY

Initials: M B

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Chaplain 4th Class

Regiment: Army Chaplains' Department

Age: 44

Date of Death: 14/05/1917

Awards: MC and Bar

Additional information: Son of Arthur Wellesley Peel, 1st Viscount Peel, former Speaker of the House of Commons; husband of the late Emily Peel. Vicar of Tamworth since 1915.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: V. A. 31.

Cemetery: QUEANT ROAD CEMETERY, BUISSY

There is more information on The Rev. The Hon. Maurice Berkeley Peel M.C. in Jonathan Walker's book; ]'Blood Tub: General Gough And The Battle Of Bullecourt, 1917' [/i]and 'Wykehamists Who died in the War 1914 - 18'. Peel was the son of Viscount Peel, Speaker of the House of Commons from 18884 - 1895. His practice was to live with the men and in action to go over with the third wave, so that he might tend all those who had fallen earlier. He was kiiled whilst going out to rescue a wounded man. He was shot through the stomach and bled to death.

[michaeldr]

Peter,

Many thanks for that picture

When I last visited Gallipoli 5 years ago I was proud to be able to place three poppies and a card by that marker; one poppy from my father, one from our local parish priest [as mentioned above] and one from myself

Lt Col Patterson was disappointed that Finn did not get the VC and even went so far as to suggest that the Pope should consider canonising him

Audax,

Quote from yr post No.28 above

To quote the description of a special correspondent who was present: ‘By the time he reached the beach he was literally riddled with bullets, but in spite of the great pain he must have been suffering he heroically went about his duties, giving consolation to the dying troops. It was while in he was in the act of attending to the spiritual requirements of one of his men that the priest’s head was shattered by shrapnel.’

I believe that this quote is also used in a book written by M. MacDonagh in 1916, ‘The Irish at the Front’ published by Hodder & Stoughton

Do you have any more info on who said/wrote the original?

Best regards

Michael D.R.

[Peter Bennett]

Peter,

Many thanks for that picture

When I last visited Gallipoli 5 years ago I was proud to be able to place three poppies and a card by that marker; one poppy from my father, one from our local parish priest [as mentioned above] and one from myself

Lt Col Patterson was disappointed that Finn did not get the VC and even went so far as to suggest that the Pope should consider canonising him

Audax,

Quote from yr post No.28 above

To quote the description of a special correspondent who was present: ‘By the time he reached the beach he was literally riddled with bullets, but in spite of the great pain he must have been suffering he heroically went about his duties, giving consolation to the dying troops. It was while in he was in the act of attending to the spiritual requirements of one of his men that the priest’s head was shattered by shrapnel.’

I believe that this quote is also used in a book written by M. MacDonagh in 1916, ‘The Irish at the Front’ published by Hodder & Stoughton

Do you have any more info on who said/wrote the original?

Best regards

Michael D.R.

A Catholic Priest being awarded the VC ? Not the done thing Old Boy.................

[Audax]

A Catholic Priest being awarded the VC ? Not the done thing Old Boy.................

Many people think that another Roman Catholic Army chaplain Father Willie Doyle SJ deserved the Victoria Cross. There is an excellent tribute on this site for the 16th (Irish) Divison: http://freespace.virgin.net/sh.k/frwdoyle.html

[Peter Bennett]

Many people think that another Roman Catholic Army chaplain Father Willie Doyle SJ deserved the Victoria Cross. There is an excellent tribute on this site for the 16th (Irish) Divison: http://freespace.virgin.net/sh.k/frwdoyle.html

He had a number of close calls before he was killed by a shell along with three officers on 17 August, on Frezenberg Ridge. He was recommended for the DSO at Wytschaete and the VC at Frezenberg.

His biographer comments: "However the triple disqualification of being an Irishman, a Catholic and a Jesuit, proved insuperable."

Q.E.D.......................................

[Audax]

A Catholic Priest being awarded the VC ? Not the done thing Old Boy.................

Michael,

The quote from the 'special correspondent' was form The Times 'History & Encylopedia of the War'. Perhaps another member of the Forum might know who the Reporters were, who accompanied the Landings at Gallipoli?

As a follow up to Fr Finn's story see the book by Major Tom Johnstone and Dr James Hagerty 'The Cross on the Sword; Catholic Chaplains to the Forces; published Geoffrey Chapman 1996. This book has been mentioned on this forum a couple of times previously.

'Accounts in newspapers at the time outraged the feelings Fr. Harker had for William Finn, a fellow Ushawman. With indignation common to soldiers who witnessed the death of friends in action towards unseemly exaggeration, Fr. Harker wrote to Mgr Bidwell ‘ the newspapers accounts and the stories told in panegyric at Hull during Finn’s requiem are a fake. Good zealous priest that he was, he needs no lies to endear him among the Dublins'.

Edited 19 December , 2005 by Audax

[michaeldr]

Audax,

Yes, I am familiar with the book and with Father Harker and with his comments.

I do not wish to question the courage of the gentleman

[how would I myself have stood the test at ‘V’ Beach on 25th April 1915?]

but one cannot help wondering how much of his letter to Bidwell

was by way of an explanation as to why he chose to stay on the ‘River Clyde’

while Father Finn went ashore to die with his men on the beach.

This is my personal opinion only, however I see Harker as a survivor. He was evacuated from Gallipoli to Malta with a stomach complaint and then went through the Western Front and ended up with the army of occupation in Cologne. All the time rising in the ranks of the chaplaincy and all the time he was also in close contact with the hierarchy at Westminster by writing letters, such as the one quoted above.

Looking towards the beach from the ship ‘River Clyde’ it would, in my opinion, be very difficult if not impossible to distinguish the actions of individual men that morning. Not only the distance involved mitigates against it, but the conditions would not allow it either. Do not forget that the ‘River Clyde was under constant fire and several were killed while trying to observe the action on the beach e.g. the CO of the Hampshires, Carrington Smith.

It is my opinion that Father Harker was NOT a direct observer of Finn’s actions that day.

I have not found one source to back-up Father Harper’s negative insinuations re Father Finn. On the contrary, new evidence of Finn’s heroic actions comes to light at regular intervals.

E.g. the Diary of John J. Goate, 5th Royal Scots, as published in ‘The Gallipolian’ No.91, Winter 1999, page 17, second para;

‘R.C. priest did neat work tending the wounded until he himself was killed.’

I realise that Goate’s diary was published after Johnstone & Hagerty’s book, but there is such a wealth of other evidence too, that I cannot understand why they gave space to Harker’s comments on Finn. Because of his copious letter writing Harker must represent a great potential source of material for the historian, however it is my opinion that he should be treat with great caution, if not down right scepticism, at least as far as Father Finn and ‘V’ Beach are concerned.

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Audax]

There's a mention of Father Finn and other Army Chaplains in this Newspaper report; click on this to to go to:

Kildare Observer

[Audax]

He had a number of close calls before he was killed by a shell along with three officers on 17 August, on Frezenberg Ridge. He was recommended for the DSO at Wytschaete and the VC at Frezenberg.

His biographer comments: "However the triple disqualification of being an Irishmen, a Catholic and a Jesuit, proved insuperable."

Father Doyle was awarded in Military Cross in early January 1917. He mentioned the award in a letter to his father. Can anyone assist in finding the date of the publication of his M.C. in the London Gazette?

Thanks

A.

[Myrtle]

Fr O'Sullivan's grave at Bouzincourt (outside the CWGC Cemetery Extension)

As previously posted in #7

Myrtle

[Peter Bennett]

As previously posted in #7

Myrtle

Deleted; My Mistake !!

[Myrtle]

Deleted; My Mistake !!

Peter

Not a mistake, just a duplicate.

Regards

Myrtle

[Casey1957]

Hi can you please give me any imformation you might have on Chaplain 4th Class The Rev. WILLIAM JOSEPH FINN.

My Aunty is Married to Criss Finn a relation of Fr Finn.and has been trying to get any imformation on him we can.

His brother was Frank Finn Lord Mayor of Hull who built a church in his memory 1926/27 (Sacred Heart 280 Southcoates Lane Hull uk)

Some bits I have are copied from another forum.

"A total of 172 padres were killed in the Great War, 16 of whom were Irish. Among the best

known Irish chaplains to die were ........ Fr Finn, the first padre of the war to be

killed, who died at Gallipoli having ignored an order not to go ashore with the troops. He

was a Tipperary man (?) serving with the 1st Dublin Fusiliers. Before the V beach landing

he had asked to be allowed to accompany the Dublins into what became an infamous massacre.

He is reputed to have said, 'The priest's place is beside the dying soldier; I must go'. He

certainly spent a considerable part of the day beside dying soldiers as there was an

abundance of them at V Beach. He attempted to save a number of drowning and wounded men

before being hit himself, in the right arm. He managed to get ashore and crawled around the

beach offering help or consolation to the wounded and dying Dublins and Munsters. In order

to give absolution he had to hold up an injured right arm with his left. While he was

blessing one of the men in this fashion, there was a shrapnel burst above him which blew

part of his skull away. He was buried on the beach and his grave marked with a cross made

out of an ammunition box 'To the Memory of the Revd Capt. Finn'"

There were many brave men at V Beach (and all over Gallipoli) that day, but you can't help

but be struck by the bravery of a man that didn't have to actually be there.

Fr. Finn's father and mother came from a place called Aghamore, Ballyhaunis, Co. Mayo.

It was said that he was shot in the chest as he was leaving the boat taking the soldiers to

the beach - he was also shot in arm and leg as he administered sacraments to wounded

soldiers and then shrapnel took away most his head shortly afterwards.

The Church of England minister, the Rev H. C. Foster, MA, wrote of his WWI experiences in a

book titled ‘At Antwerp and in the Dardanelles’ published by Mills & Boon in 1918 - despite

being from different backgrounds the Rev Foster and Father Finn developed a firm friendship

while serving together. As a token of this friendship Finn presented Foster with a

medallion of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Foster himself wrote “Father Finn’s death was a

great grief to me and a great blow to his men who well nigh worshipped him.”

[michaeldr]

Kilnsea,

Welcome to the Great War Forum

Try to get hold of 'Mayo Commrades of the Great War' by P J Clarke & Michael Feeney

published by Padraig Corcoran Publishing, Ballina, Co. Mayo [iSBN 0-954368-0-X] and see pages 264-267

with best regards

Michael

[Casey1957]

Kilnsea,

Welcome to the Great War Forum

Try to get hold of 'Mayo Commrades of the Great War' by P J Clarke & Michael Feeney

published by Padraig Corcoran Publishing, Ballina, Co. Mayo [iSBN 0-954368-0-X] and see pages 264-267

with best regards

Michael

Not sure did the reply get through .

Thank you very much for this Michael.

Kindest Regards

Lawrence

[nigelcave]

The matter of C of E clergy in the trenches and who forbade who from going where has for a long time been a source of contention. Given the number of C of E chaplain casualties, this would rather suggest that this was not the case; part of the explanation of why this might have been lies in the nature of theological beliefs - in this case the RCs had seven sacraments to administer, two of which called for their presence near those in danger of losing their lives - ie the last rites (extreme unction - now anointing of the sick and placed in a different perspective) and the administration of communion using the reserved host - ie they could give out communion which had been consecrated in another place at another time. All of this is quite a complex topic and probably one that Forum members do not want to get too involved with. I would say that the casualty list amongst Anglican chaplains speaks very loudly about their willingness to put themselves into danger. The point, surely, is that Anglican clergy did not have to be in places of great danger; but RC ones more or less had to be as a requirement of their pastoral appointment.

The grade of chaplain (another point raised in the post) did not mean that the lowest were to be found exclusively amongst battalions - many at this level were in CCS, for example, Numbers of chaplains in any case did not allow for every battalion to have their own (and there was the matter of denomination to deal with in any case). It is noticeable, by the way, of the NZ Chaplain headstone posted earlier, that he is a Captain - the Canadians as well used ranks instead of grades. For the moment I cannot lay my hands on a book as to what the Australian custom might have been.

Finally, on Doyle: all I can say (as I have reported before) is that we have in our archives a letter from his brother, Charles Doyle SJ, who went to see the Archbishop of Westminster (Cardinal Bourne), amongst other things, about the matter of the VC. He says that Bourne was against the giving of VCs to RC Chaplains, on the grounds that they were merely doing what their vocation called them to do - that is to administer the sacraments to their 'flock'. therefore, DSOs etc were acceptable, but the nature of the VC, requiring actions over and above the call of duty, did not fit the job description, to put it crudely. Elsewhere it has been said that such could not stop the award of the VC, but I am sure that it could. For example, at the beginning of WWII, doctors in the RAMc were told that there would be no VCs for doctors - and sure enough, there were none - a considerable contrast to the situation in earlier conflicts. Bourne acted as Bishop in Ordinary to the Forces; it was delegated to another bishop, but he, Bourne, had the responsibility, as did succeeding Archbishops until the establishment of the Vicariate to the Forces after the Second World War. His views would have had to be taken into account by the War Office, however we might view them today.