henry george brown(e) RNSR 1885-1900

[Guest abrowne]

TO RNCVR

Dear Captain [bryan],

I read your postings with great interest as they have

help me to decipher my own SR of Henry George Brown.

(He was my great grandfather). I read your profile

and understand your interest in Victorian naval

history which is just up my alley for HGB.

At first I understood that Sailmaker was his learnt

profession during service with RN but now after

reading your comments I would say that he held this

profession before joining. (Its amazing because it

seems he joined in 1885 when he was only 15. Does it

hold true that pre-great war earliest recruits joined

at the age of 15 9 months? (Henry Brown was born on

the 14th June 1870 and the first record shows 16 June

1885 [hard to mark out] but it must be because in the

remarks it shows he got paid in Midsumer? '85)

My real questions relate to the sub-rating and badges.

I noticed that you mention the SG means seaman gunner

but that seems to be all i can make out. Its twice as

confusing since the sub-rating and badges are mixed

together in the same column. One question I have to

the sub-rating was whether the sub-rating carried a

badge - as do todays ratings (service stripes).

As you will see HGB was not always the exemplary

seaman, he was 3 times put into cells. My question

what consituted an officer to warrent a rating to be

put into cells. Is there a website about the Naval

discipline system ? And the other question is relates

to the number of days -which of course was dependent

on the severity of the "misdemeanor". I have read

that ratings were put on half days pay and that sort

of thing as disciplinary action as well - but dont see

any mention of it here.

I really one have one last question which relates to

his enrollment. Initally he joined the navy for 12

years in 1888. But by that time he had already served

his stint as a boy rating. Does it mean that he could

only start his enrollment for 12 years after he

reached the rank of Ordinary Seaman ? After the 12

years of service the service record ends.. but there

is a remark to say that he rejoined the navy for a

period of 5 years in 1908 to 1912 when he was

discharged on grounds of gratuity. My question is how

I find out what his duties were during the

re-enrollment - or is this the only record that I will

be able to find.

thanks so much for your assistance

Andrew Browne

abrowne123@yahoo.com

http://geocities.com/abrowne123/abhome.htm

henry_george_brown_RNSR.pdf

[Gilgamesh of Uruk]

As far as I'm aware, the 12 years only started from age 18. Time in the RN before that, as a boy, didn't count.

[RNCVR]

Andrew,

I am unable to open the attachment so cannot reply on his SR,

Bryan

[james_harvey]

Hi Andrew,

He joined the Royal fleet reserve after leaving the navy.

He was recalled once a year to prove effiecency.

He was awarded a long service medal in 1911.

When i get my printer fixed i will be able to decipher more of it for you.

Kind Regards

James

[RNCVR]

Hi Andrew,

I have had a chance to study Geo Brown's SR & here is the detail on his career - think all of yr questions will be answered -

He joins as a Boy 2nd class 16 Jun '85 at 15 yrs of age. His civilian trade was noted as sailmaker altho he did not persure that trade in the RN.

He gets promoted to Boy 1st class 16 Jun '86. & is rated Ordinary seaman upon attaining age 18 on 14 Jun '88. His adult service commences from this time - note in the upper left corner under: "Date & Period of CS Engagements" - he signed on at that time for 12 years Continuous service.

He gets promoted to AB (Able Seaman) on 11 Nov '89.

However prior to that he gets into trouble: On Jly 5 to 9 he gets 3 days cell time. It also puts him into the 2nd class for Conduct - see "Class for Conduct" column. He stays clean for a while as he gets restored to the 1st class for Conduct on 9 Jan '90. However does not last long as he gets another stint in cells from 17 to 28 Nov '91 & again gets in the 2nd class for Conduct on 18 Nov '91. Another stint in cells follows from 24 May to 3 Jun '92, & he finally gets restored to the 1st class for Conduct on 1 Jun '93.

So this boy had some problems with Naval discipline. I expect he was in trouble for disobedience or refusal of orders, or perhaps direct disobedience of orders, or gross disrespect of his superiors. It had to be something drastic to get cell time.

Just being adrift, late or overstaying leave or some minor offence would not bring a rating cell time.

to be con't...........

[joseph]

Andrew,

To expand on Cell Punishment,

Index of offences suggesting the normal maximum summary punishment that may in each case be awarded.

Cell Punishment

a. Desertion

b. Quitting ship, boat, working party, or other duty, without leave, but

not with intent to desert

c. Absence without leave

d. Making false charges

g. Giving false evidence, or prevaricating at investigations, or lying .

h. Drunkenness at sea, or on duty

i. Smuggling liquor on board, or into a boat

j. Habitual drunkenness.

k. Deserting post

l. Skulking from or neglect or improper performance of important duty

m. Wilfully producing, concealing, aggravating, or feigning any disease

or infirmity, to the prejudice of the Service

n. Wilfully omitting to detect and report all offenders against the Naval

Discipline Act ; or wilfully neglecting to assist others in the detection and apprehension of such offenders

o. Selling or making away with medals or clasps

p. Selling or improperly disposing of clothes or beddin g without

permission

q. Insubordination

r. Riotous conduct

s. Insolence or contempt to superiors

t. Impeding the police of the ship in the performance of their duties

u. Wilfully breaking, wasting, or injuring public stores, or wilfully

destroying or injuring the clothes or effects of persons in the Royal

Navy or others.

v. Maliciously throwing anything from aloft, down hatchways, into

engine room, &c.

w. Using provoking language tending to create bad feeling or

disturbance.

Regards Charles

[RNCVR]

Continuing Geo Brown’s S.R.:

He was promoted to AB & also TM (Trained man) on 11 Nov ’89. This would have brought him a raise in pay.

In the Sub Ratings & Badges column will translate these entries for you now as you had questions on them in yr post above:

This column deals with his ratings (his RN trade) & his GCB’s (Good Conduct badges) – all of these items a rating was paid for.

SG 1cl – Seaman Gunner 1st class. – rated SG 1cl on 5 Mar ‘94

SG 2 cl – Seaman Gunner 2nd class – rated SG 2cl on 21 Jan ‘98

1st B – 1 Jun ’95 - Granted his first GCB (Good Conduct badge) normally the first GCB was awarded after 3 years adult service (after age 18) but his time in cells disbarred him from receiving it earlier. He was paid an addition 1p per diem for this GCB.

2 B – 30 Jun ’98 – awarded his 2nd GCB. (normally rec’d after 8 yrs adult service)

Dep 1 – 25 Aug ’98 – he was deprived of one GCB with resultant loss of pay. Normally a rating lost a GCB for some minor offence that was not serious enough to warrant cell time. The loss was usually for a period of 6 months.

R 2nd – 25 Feb ’99 – he has his 2nd GCB & pay restored.

Next his rank progression:

Promoted to LS (Leading Seaman) on 15 Oct ‘97

PO2 (Petty Officer 2nd cl) on 1 Mar ’99, & PO1 (Petty Officer 1st cl) on 28 July ’99.

His Character assessments in the Character column:

He character was assessed as GOOD for the years ’89-‘90-‘91, & FAIR for ’92, & GOOD again in ’98. A rating required a character assessment of not less than VG (VERY GOOD) for a period of 15 years (at the time he was serving) to qualify for his Long Service medal. As Brown did not have this continuous assessment he would not have qualified for a LS medal. Poor character assessments did not debar a man from receiving his pension tho.

[RNCVR]

On 13 Jun ’00 he is Discharged to Shore CS (Continuous Service) expired – his 12 year engagement was up. He signs on the RFR (Royal Fleet Reserve) Chatham on 1 Jan ’04 & re engages on 2 May ’08 for a further 5 years to commence from 1 Jan ’09.

He is discharged on 19 Jan ’12 with a Gratuity & must have rec’d a pension as it is noted as Traced on 18 Dec ’11.

His SR does not reveal if he has WWI service or not. It is possible he was invalided out in ’12 & no recalled for WWI.

Please let me know if you require any further info Andrew,

Bryan

[RNCVR]

An interesting thing I found when reading Brown’s SR was the fact that he was drafted to HMS Camperdown ( a ram equipped Turret Battleship & Flagship of the 2nd in Command Mediterranean Fleet) on 13 Oct ’91 – he was sentenced to cell time (10 days) twice whilst on her - but on 4 Jun ’92 was drafted to HMS Royal Sovereign (“re enters from cells”) - the Commander of Camperdown had likely had enough of Brown & did not want him back!

Had he been sent back to Camperdown it is very possible he would have been on board her on 22 Jun ’93 the day she rammed & sank HMS Victoria the Flagship of Vice Admiral Tryon Commander in Chief of the Med Fleet.

Let me know Andrew if you wish firther info on Brown's ships,

Bryan

[Guest abrowne]

thanks so much for your assistance, particularly in the explanation of the demoting and re-promotion of his class. One question about his TM designation. Do we have any idea what this might have been. (presumably related to gunnery ??? ) Also could one fathom a guess where his post might have been (I guess it could have been anywhere on the weatherdeck where the gunports were).

I also wish to thank Major [Joseph] for the list of offences that could have put BROWN into the cells. If has to do with any genetic trait I would suggest that the offence related to

q. Insubordination

r. Riotous conduct

s. Insolence or contempt to superiors or

w. Using provoking language tending to create bad feeling or

disturbance.

perhaps even

v. Maliciously throwing anything from aloft, down hatchways, into

engine room, &c.

no doubt that the 3 days cell time was for one of these offences and the subsequent 10 days cell time for more than one. I can suggest that definately there was some altercation with an officer of the Camperdown causing his dismissal from that vessel. When I read about the accident with the Victoria; I had the feeling that when BROWN learnt about it, he was probably somehow amuzed that the management could have caused such an accident. As the accident occured 1 year later (almost exactly to the day) no doubt the same management was on the Camperdown when it rammed HMS Victoria.

With the regard to the ships BROWN served on I can be proud to say that I have in my possession several pictures. One of these pictures depicts a vessel off Weymouth - which must signify the Boscawen I on which he trained as a boy. In addition to this I have a group portrait in Montevideo which I would estimate was from one of his later ships. I would like to think that it was during his stint on the HMS Acorn the same a Lietenant by the name of Davidson A.P., who "at great personal risk, rescued a Boy of the same ship from drowning at Monte Video, 3rd April, 1897"; and was awarded the Bronze Medal from the Royal Humane Society in the same year.

Anyway as per the ships he was assigned to I find the website http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk quite useful; I note that there are some fine pictures of Gunners at work on the website for Sans Pareil for instance. At the same time, however, its not always easy to define in which part of the world these ships were stationed at, and I note that in some aspects there is confusion which vessel was what such in the case of the HMS Pembroke which was the name that was given to the training ship at Chatham. For this reason I am not sure if the HMS Pembroke BROWN served on was Pembroke (Ex Duncan) or Pembroke (ex Trent). It is my suspicion that it was the former (HMS Duncan) which served as Pembroke from 1899 to 1905 when it was renamed as HMS Tenedos II.

Andrew

[Guest abrowne]

i seem to be adding to the error regarding HMS Pembroke.

HMS Pembroke (Ex Duncan) served from 1889 [not 1899] until 1905 under that name.

Reference: http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/query/results...hWords=Cheshire