Marco Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 Could someone tell me what the numbered points are on the map below? Are they reference points? For what? They are in the British frontline so artillery rerefence points would be unlikely. Not? TIA! Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 Could someone tell me what the numbered points are on the map below? Are they reference points? For what? They are in the British frontline so artillery rerefence points would be unlikely. Not? TIA! Regards, Marco They're trench references. It's what the trenches were referred to in orders, war diaries, etc so the reader knew exactly which trench was being referred to. They had other names "on the ground", but could also referred to as these references. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 29 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2005 Thanks Dave. Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 Dave - How do you get to N.20.2 for example? What is the N, the 20 and 2? North? And why do the fraction of number move away from center? I mean shouldn't it be 20.1, 20.2, 20.3, - 20.9, 21.1, 21.2, etc? In the above map 20.1 and 21.7 are next to each other and the number decrease from there out towards the flanks. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 Could someone tell me what the numbered points are on the map below? Are they reference points? For what? They are in the British frontline so artillery rerefence points would be unlikely. Not? TIA! Regards, Marco The N probably stands for that portion of the front. f.i. Northern salient of Ypres is C, South of Menin road is I. You will probably see it somewhere mentioned on your trench map as a large letter. Than the number following this refers to the number of that particular square on your trench map, areas were mapped out in squares to make it easier to provide artillery coordinates. So you get N.21. Than they number each front line trench in that particular square, from east to West, that's where your last number comes from. I hope this explanation is not too confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 Dave - How do you get to N.20.2 for example? What is the N, the 20 and 2? North? And why do the fraction of number move away from center? I mean shouldn't it be 20.1, 20.2, 20.3, - 20.9, 21.1, 21.2, etc? In the above map 20.1 and 21.7 are next to each other and the number decrease from there out towards the flanks. Andy They're simply trench numbers, not grid references. The "N", as Bert has mentioned, refers to the grid square "N" which encompasses (usually) 30 numbered smaller grid squares. Shown on the extract is square 21 and part of 20 which is why the trenches in square 21, for example, are trench "N.21." then the number of the particular trench section. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 I have noticed that these types of notation seem to have been more common early in war, say to 1916, but thereafter became less common. I speculate that Army staff officers struggling to come to terms with trench warfare, perhaps overorganized things a bit. I suspect that a major trench, such as N.20 , was meant to be a battalion front, and the systematic coding from left to right (and front to rear!) was meant to encourage clarity and understanding. The drawback, to my mind, was the fact that if the line moved forward or back a few hundred yards, the whole system was thrown out of whack, requiring a complete re-do, with associated confusion. From 1917, most operational orders I have seen referred to trenches by their common names (for example "QUMQUAT trench") delimited by standard map coordinates. I am sure others have noticed examples contradicting what I have just said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 f.i. Northern salient of Ypres is C, South of Menin road is I. It's not quite a simple as that, Bert, but I know what you mean. (The frontline prior to 31st July 1917 in the ypres Salient ran through grid squares "T", "B", "C", "I", "J", back into "I", "O", "N", a little bit in "T" then "U" as it went past Ploegsteert into "C" and "I" beyond Armentieres, etc. etc.) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 I am sure others have noticed examples contradicting what I have just said! Sorry, but yes I have! You are correct that this method was used on many of the earlier maps, but the system was used as late as September 1918. The idea was that it would be less confusing (and more accurate) to use a trench reference which only denoted a short stretch of front rather than a trench name which could describe an area of up to several miles in length. Occasionally, you can also see the German front trenches denoted in a similar manner. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 They're simply trench numbers, not grid references. The "N", as Bert has mentioned, refers to the grid square "N" which encompasses (usually) 30 numbered smaller grid squares. Shown on the extract is square 21 and part of 20 which is why the trenches in square 21, for example, are trench "N.21." then the number of the particular trench section. Dave. Ok... that makes sense... what seems odd though is the trenches are marked sequentially from right to left rather than the more customary left to right. Am I seeing this right, is there a reason for that? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 Dave, Have to agree, I have a trench map of july 1917, showing Welsh positions near Ypres and they use this system as well. Bert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 29 November , 2005 Share Posted 29 November , 2005 Ok... that makes sense... what seems odd though is the trenches are marked sequentially from right to left rather than the more customary left to right. Am I seeing this right, is there a reason for that? Andy I'm not 100% certain on this (never thought about it before, to be honest!), but I'd hazard a guess that it stems back to the old British Army "right of the line" mentality (in other words, on the western front of 1914-18 - the numbering would run from south to north). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 30 November , 2005 Share Posted 30 November , 2005 I'm not 100% certain on this (never thought about it before, to be honest!), OMG Dave have I stumped you on a map question? YES! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 30 November , 2005 Share Posted 30 November , 2005 OMG Dave have I stumped you on a map question? YES! Andy Well, you do seem to ask the questions that I hadn't though of , Andy!!! I've had a good innings so far, wouldn't you agree? I might be correct (75% certain) on this one yet!!! I'll certainly find out for you, though! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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