Mark Hone Posted 26 November , 2005 Share Posted 26 November , 2005 At long last I am starting a systematic transcription and annotation of the 'Bury And District Soldiers' Memorial book'. In the 1916 volume I am beginning to discover one or two people who do not appear to exist on the CWGC database or SDGW. I am obviously going through alternative spellings of their names etc to try and find them. The most puzzling so far is Private Joseph Barclay (25) of Holland St, Besses O' The Barns ( a real place, I assure you, between Whitefield and Prestwich). Supposedly he was in the Manchester Regiment and died on 16th March 1916. 'He was employed by Messrs Burton and Slingsby, Radcliffe and had only been married for a short time'. I can find no trace of this chap, or anyone remotely named like him on CWGC or SDGW. I have tried alternative spellings, years, regiments etc. I am coming to the conclusion he either didn't die or was a 'served as'. The Memorial Book was published after the war, so a missing man who was in fact a POW etc doesn't really fit the bill, unless the family didn't notify the 'Bury Times'. Any suggestions, folks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 26 November , 2005 Share Posted 26 November , 2005 mark have you a clue to his battalion,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 26 November , 2005 Share Posted 26 November , 2005 Mark And just to wind you up even further....... ......I can't find an on-line Medal Index Card for a Joseph Barclay with the Mancs. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 26 November , 2005 Share Posted 26 November , 2005 Mark Pursuing the 'only been married for a short time' line, there is a marriage for a Joseph Barclay as follows: June quarter 1915 Registration district - Wigan Reference 8c 4b Joseph Barclay and Ellen Cooper Perhaps if this is him, and he was serving at the time of his marriage, his service details might be given on the certificate. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 28 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 28 November , 2005 Thanks for the replies. Sorry-I forgot to mention that I couldn't find an MIC for him either. The brief obit in the 'Memorial Book' doesn't mention a battalion, although it is possible that the longer original in the Bury Times itself may have done so. I shall go and check this. This chap is a complete man of mystery. I was rather surprised that even a cursory check on the names in the 1916 volume has already thrown up 3 of these 'unknown soldiers'. The other two (perhaps significantly) were in the addendum section at the end, where the paper has no photograph of the deceased. Barclay is in the main section, with accompanying photo in uniform, but alas not wearing hat or having any other distinguishing buttons etc on show. The date of death is not much help-the SDGW shows that a number of battlaions of the Manchesters lost men around this date, none of them Joseph Barclay, a mis-spelling or an obvious pseudonym. I suspect other Pals have come across similar mystery men in the course of their research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 28 November , 2005 Share Posted 28 November , 2005 mark,heres a ref to one of your grammar school blokes pte harold rigby of 221 manchester rd,bury,has been slightly wounded,he is an old boy of bury grammar and a playing member of dorie football club and this one pte howard bott has been killed,he came from borwood lee,ramsbottom and was a old boy of bury grammar. from the M.E.N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 1 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2005 Thanks for the further info, Bernard. I have already found four men of complete mystery out of about 75 soldiers from 1916 researched so far. The most recent is Sergeant James Mackey, East Lancs, supposedly killed on September 9th 1916 from Dale Street Stubbins, age 29. Photo, biographical details etc but no sign of him or anyone with a similar name on CWGC, SDGW or MIC. The only likely MIC was a bloke in the Machine Gun Corps who survived. All very strange. I've come across quite a few minor mistakes of spelling etc, including one fellow who supposedly died of wounds in France but is actually buried in Egypt. (He was of course originally wounded at Gallipoli). Nevertheless these totally non-existent men are very puzzling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 1 December , 2005 Share Posted 1 December , 2005 Nevertheless these totally non-existent men are very puzzling. Mark Welcome to the wide and wonderful world of large scale research projects. You will get used to it and just accept that there's going to be a batch who you cannot find. I've got several from the Stockport memorials. Some with almost no clue whatsoever - such as man called F L Joy who is listed on the main town memorial as serving with "overseas" forces. Can I find him? No, I can't. Does it make me peeved? Yes, it does. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 1 December , 2005 Share Posted 1 December , 2005 Mark There's a Joseph Berkley on the MIC - Mancs and MGC. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 1 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2005 Thanks Ian, he might be worth following up. He didn't die of course so some of the mystery remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 1 December , 2005 Share Posted 1 December , 2005 Mark, A few more thoughts (apologies if ''egg-sucking''): Maybe he was discharged before his death? Have you tried 1837 online, for a death certificate, including the overseas section? Buried in a local cemetery? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 2 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2005 Discharged before death is a possibility which I hadn't considered. There is a (Canadian) soldier, Sydney Olive, on our school war memorial who fits into this category. He was wounded at Second Ypres, repatriated to Canada and died sometime before the end of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 2 December , 2005 Share Posted 2 December , 2005 Thanks for the further info, Bernard. I have already found four men of complete mystery out of about 75 soldiers from 1916 researched so far. The most recent is Sergeant James Mackey, East Lancs, supposedly killed on September 9th 1916 from Dale Street Stubbins, age 29. Photo, biographical details etc but no sign of him or anyone with a similar name on CWGC, SDGW or MIC. The only likely MIC was a bloke in the Machine Gun Corps who survived. All very strange. I've come across quite a few minor mistakes of spelling etc, including one fellow who supposedly died of wounds in France but is actually buried in Egypt. (He was of course originally wounded at Gallipoli). Nevertheless these totally non-existent men are very puzzling. Mark This is more than likely James Mackey. James McKay Serjeant Lancashire Fusiliers 2nd/5th Bn. 29 years old 09/09/1916 2523 MM Husband of Annie Mckay of Dale St, Stubbins, Ramsbottom, Manchester. Pier & Face: 3C & 3D Thiepval Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 2 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2005 That's him, Myrtle. Why did I miss him in the first place? Probably because I didn't expect the Bury Times to get the spelling of the name wrong and the regiment. After all Bury is the home town of the Lancashire Fusiliers! Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 3 December , 2005 Share Posted 3 December , 2005 Mark I have found that researching much smaller war memorials than yours at Bury, is often made more difficult by spelling mistakes, wrong names and often the wrong initials being inscribed. It seems that people at the time were understandably concerned with ensuring that every man in their area was commemorated, sometimes to the detriment of accuracy when it came to names. One of the quotes to remember when researching war memorials: "Don't take anything for granted." Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 5 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2005 The introduction to the 'Memorial Book' apologises for the inevitable mistakes and stresses how much more difficult the job was than the compiler expected. They certainly stopped after the 1916 volume. Local legend has it that the Bury Times lost heart because of the sheer number of casualties later in the war, but this rather ignores the fact that the Memorial Books were published after, not during the war, as a reading of the foreword shows. We have already come across quite a few mistakes, including mis-spellings, wrong theatre of death, wrong regiment, wrong month and even year of death as well as the handful of men who appear to be completely non-existent. It is unfortunate that the BT stopped publishing the books after the 1916 volume and so we shall have to photograph the individual obituaries from the fragile bound volumes of the newspaper itself. Nevertheless, at least they did publish some compendia of obituaries which has given us a head start. I have known people who have undertaken similar tasks in other nearby towns who have not had the benefit of these and found the whole thing daunting. I wonder how common such Memorial books were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 john,is this your man. sgt frederick joy 166354 canadian pioneers 2nd batt age 39 died of wounds 18-3-16 son of fred,s joy husband of euphemia joy,6 egerton st,gorton buried ringwood cemetary grave ref. I.J.3 his wife worked as a forewoman at a mineral water works he seems to be still living on his fathers 300 acre farm in gt oakley,essex and his wife is living in gorton with their daughter in 1901,they may have seperated or hes commuting to and from essex???he would have enough oppertunity to commute,because his father had 12 men and 3 boys working on the farm at tendring rd,gt oakley bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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