Guest LadyMoonlight Posted 22 November , 2005 Share Posted 22 November , 2005 (edited) But I need some help deciphering them! I am 33 and, unusually for someone my age, I have a father who served in WWII and a Grandfather and several Great-Uncles who served in WWI (2 of which did not come home)!! I am trying to track down my family members who served in WWI to compile a family "Roll of Honour". I have found the two casualties (my great uncles Arthur and George Gabb) on the Commonwealth War Graves website, and both my aunt and cousin have been to visit the graves in France. But I also need some information on those members of the family who survived service in WWI - my Grandfather (David Bateman, of the Welsh Guards) and my Great-Uncles (William and Francis/Frank Gabb both of the South Wales Borderers, as we beleive. I have found medal records for a David Bateman, a William Gabb and a Frank Gabb, although I am still trying to make sure they are the correct people. My Great-Uncle Frank's real name was Francis, but the only other Francis Gabb listed has a different middle name. My Great-Uncle Frank joined up at 16 (he lied about his age) and became a stretcher bearer. Were there special units for Stretcher bearers or would he just have been listed as a private in the South Wales Borderers? The "other" Francis Gabb is listed as being in the Royal Army Service Corps. I am attaching the Medal Records to this post and I would be really really grateful if someone could decipher them for me. The first is for my Grandfather, David Bateman, and his records is the second at the top. Original attachment removed Edited 23 November , 2005 by Chris_Baker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 22 November , 2005 Share Posted 22 November , 2005 Ladymoonlight, Welcome to the Forum, but sorry to disappoint you, I'm afraid none of your attachment MIC's have materialised. May I suggest placing them in a "My Photo" file on your computer. Come back to the Forum and click "Reply" in this post. Left click on "Browse" and then find the MIC in your photofile - Left click on the relevant MIC - Then left click "Add this Attachment" - when it had been processed then left click "Add into Post" - Finally left click "Add Reply". Once they're on here members will jump on them to try and help you out. Best of luck, Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyMoonlight Posted 22 November , 2005 Share Posted 22 November , 2005 Thanks Graham. I am having trouble isolating the individual MICs from the sheet on which they are saved. I have cut-and-pasted them onto a Word Document, but the Forum did not allow me to attach that, and I can't save individual MIC's by selecting them from the whole document, as I do not have Adobe Professional on my PC and it will not let me do it. It seems that the whole Adobe file which I received from the National Archives is too big to send as an attachment. Do you have any other ideas how I could attach copies of these 3 MICs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 The Acrobat software (or similar) should have a select tool. Use this to isolate the required MIc and copy it (Right click, copy) Then open up Paint. Paste image. You will need to reduce the size down slightly, so select Image-Stretch/Skew and reduce both 100% to 80%. Click Ok to resize. Save the file as a jpeg. Then follow Graham's instructions. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyMoonlight Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Thanks so much for your help. Here are the three MIC's: my Grandfather, David Bateman and my two Great-Uncles, William and Frank Gabb: I'd love to know what battalions they served in and any other information that can be gleaned from the cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_B Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 LadyMoonlight, Just to say hello, I'm gald you made it from the C4 "lost generation" forum to here. I'll leave it to the "experts" to decipher your MICs. But while you are waiting for reples this ref might get you started: http://www.1914-1918.net/mics.htm Welcome again to the forum, and good luck with your search. Regards Chris (Krisbee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Take it from the top... Frank Gabb. Both the service number and the fact that he has "Class Z" on his remarks suggest a New Army volunteer. The number and his date of going overseas would both suggest enlistment in early 1915 (therefore almost certainly a volunteer). "Class Z" reserve was the Reserve that the men who enlisted "for the duration" were transferred to in case hostilities resumed after the Armistice. Tying in with the date of moving overseas, the 38th Division moved to France between 21st November and 6th December 1915 which ties in perfectly. This could be coincidental of course (he could have been a replacement draft for casualties from an earlier battalion) but the odds are in our favour. That would therefore suggest that he was either in the 10th or 11th Battalions. (1st and 2nd Gwent, respectively) http://www.1914-1918.net/swb.htm This is obviously supposition in places, and the Medal Rolls at the NA should either confirm or prove the idea wrong. That's about it for that one... I'll look at the others later if I can find time. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyMoonlight Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Thanks so much Steve! I guess he may well have been a volunteer. I know that he lied about his age at 15 and ran away to enlist early on in the war, and became a stretcher bearer (terrible job). We have lots of photos of him at home in his uniform, actually one of them has him posing with his comrades (one of them is lying on the stretcher for fun!) and I'm sure there is a blackboard with their battalion chalked on it in front of them, I will have to ask my mum to dig it out. I know that he was sent home to recuperate after being injured, and apparently so shell-shocked and damaged was this 16 year old boy (child, really) by the horrible scenes he'd scene that he cried and begged his family not to send him back. In the end his favourite sister had to take him down to the docks and put him on the boat (they were terrified he'd be shot for desertion). Well he survived the war and when he came home, got married and emigrated to Australia. He couldn't bear to stay in the UK after all he'd been through. We have been trying to search for our relatives in Australia (Frank's descendants) because my mum lost touch with them after my grandmother died. My Grandfather, David Bateman, had a terrible experience by all accounts. He died in 1935 a few months before his youngest child (my mother) was born, his health had never recovered from the war it seems. William (Bill) also did not live long after returning from the war, its likely that he died from the same reasons. There were two more brothers who died in action (George and Arthur Gabb) and another brother (Walter Gabb - the only one of my great uncles I actually ever met) who served only for a short time, and was discharged for ill health. I cannot find a MIC for him - would that be because he did not serve long enough to qualify for a medal? I'd love to know anything else you can find if you have the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 If Frank was in the 38th Division then he would have been at the 1st Day of of the Somme at Mametz (1st July 1916). Although this wasn't the bloody slaughter further north, it would certainly have left an impression on the boy. I wouldn't be surprised if this was where he was wounded. http://www.1914-1918.net/38div.htm Walter may not have a Medal Card. Only those men who served overseas were entitled to the campaign medals. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Not necessarily Kate. The 12th (3rd Gwent) was originally a "Bantam" unit for men under 5' 2" tall. The did not go overseas until June 1916. It is likely that Frank joined up in Newport, but then went to Brecon to join the 10th or 11th Battalion. You didn't even have to join the local battalion, my great-uncle was from Peterborough, enlisted in London and served in the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch). He was not even a bit Scottish. That said 75% of men from Peterborough ended up in the local Northamptonshire Regiment, which I would imagine would be a similar percentage up and down the country. I'm personally sticking with 38th Division for the 10th or 11th Battalion... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyMoonlight Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Thanks Chris, its great to find a forum like this! And thanks again Steve, yes it does seem like Uncle Frank would have been in the 38th if that is the date he went overseas. Its just wonderful to be able to put historical facts and numbers to the stories we have in the family - all we have are names photos and stories, no actual historical or official facts and figures. I'm hoping to be able to understand a little of what they went through from finding out about the various battles they might have been involved in. My mother, brother and I are also hoping to visit the war Graves in France, my auntie has already been and said it was incredibly moving. We have a postcard at home from my Grandfather from Givenchy-on-Somme which says "Suffered awful losses". Its dated 1915 - I'm going to have to do some research to see which battles the Welsh Guards may have been involved in in 1915 in Givenchy-on-Somme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Kate, Slight correction to make. The 38th Division did not attack Mametz Wood on 1st July 1916 but it did on the 7th, 8th, 10th & 11th July with the 115th Brigade (of which both the 10th & 11th SWB were part of) engaged in battle on the 7th & 8th (and in Reserve on the 10th & 11th) Sorry. Moving on, the Welsh Guards should be pretty easy to follow - the only had one battalion serving overseas. http://www.1914-1918.net/welsguards.htm Strangely enough the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards were in the Guards Division: http://www.1914-1918.net/gdiv.htm Alright, not strange at all... The Guards Divisions first major battle was the Battle of Loos, though they were held in Reserve on the 25th September 1915, its first day. (Don't worry, I'd never heard of it before I started either). The Guards were more involved at Hill 70 on the 27-29 September 1915 and at the Hohenzollern Redoubt on the 13-19 October 1915. You wont find a better write-up on Loos on the Net than right here: http://www.1914-1918.net/BATTLES/bat13_loos/bat.htm The Welsh Guards were part of the 3rd Guards Brigade within the Guards Division. 1st Bn, the Grenadier Guards (joined 4 August 1915) 4th Bn, the Grenadier Guards (joined 19 August 1915, left 18 February 1918) 2nd Bn, the Scots Guards (joined 9 August 1915) 1st Bn, the Welsh Guards (joined 20 August 1915) 3rd Guards Brigade Machine Gun Company (formed by 19 September 1915, moved into 4th Bn Guards MG Regiment 1 March 1918) On 1st March 1918, the Machine Gun Companies of the Guards Regiments were amalgamated into the Guards Machine Gun Regiment. This is undoubtedly what happened to your grandfather when he "changed" battalions. So in summary (for your signature ) : Private/Corporal/Acting-Sergeant David Bateman, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, later 4th Battalion Machine Gun Guards Regiment. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Steve, have you ever fancied a job as official "pages on The Long, Long Trail" promoter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Chris - I think most Pals, once "commissioned", use the LLT pages when stuck on a particular poser as their first point of reference; I certainly come back to them time and again. Thank you for putting them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 What's the salary? Hey, if the info is right and it helps everyone then why not. Unless it's sucking up system resources of course... The Forum is supposed to advertise your website is it not? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 On with the show. Who is that Chris Baker bloke, anyway? Just had a quick check through the MICs that have named battalions on them in the SWB. As follows: As you can see the majority of numbers allocated around Frank Gabb's number are 10th & 11th Battalion, supporting the 38th Division theory (I hope). Statistically speaking, that's only about 5% of a full strength battalion (1000+ men) so the sample could well be misleading. Based just on those figures the 11th Battalion looks likely, but that is little more than a guess. That's about as far as I think we can go without checking someones databases or looking up the medals rolls at the National Archives. Hope that helps, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyMoonlight Posted 23 November , 2005 Share Posted 23 November , 2005 Wow, thanks so much for the information Steve, thats fabulous! I've updated my signature, I feel I'm really getting somewhere now. Although I haven't finished. Along with the five Gabb brothers who served (my grandmother's brothers) and their brother-in-law David Bateman, there were my great-uncles on the other side - David Bateman's brothers Jack and Tom who also served! I have to try and get some information on them as well to complete the family Roll of Honour!!! Phew! I remember as a child having a lot of World War I relics in our house that had been brought home by my great uncles and grandfather. There was a beautiful French Cavalry Officer's sword (inscribed to a Colonel Etienne) which we were not allowed to play with because it was still really sharp! There were *lots* of medals, badges, postcards, letters, telegrams etc. When I was a child, my Uncle Walter - the only one of my Great Uncles I ever got to meet, (the others having died before I was born) lived in a very Victorian lodge house, and in it were many relics which the brothers had brought home from the bombed out churches on the Somme - a Statue of St Theresa and lots of beautiful Crucifixs (my grandparents and some other members of the family were Catholic) along with lots of other relics I can't remember them all now). It is so sad to think all these effects are gone now. I wish we still had the medals. But when Uncle Walter died and then Granny died in 1981 my mum cleared it all out - she gave the religious relics to the church and sold the sword, medals etc, I guess she saw it just as clutter, but I wish we still had them. We still have some photos, but only a fraction of what was originally there, and the telegrams, letters, badges etc are all gone. I would also like to add my Dad to the Roll of Honour, who served in Word War II (He was 53 when I was born!) but I don't have his details and the papers have been lost. He died in 1998 so he's not around to ask anymore (I grew up on war stories, he was the same age most of my friends' grandfathers!). I only know he served in the desert with Monty and the Desert Rats, Malta and Italy and was in the Royal Corps of Signals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 4 December , 2005 Share Posted 4 December , 2005 Steve Have just started researching a relative who was killed in August 1918 whilst serving as 2nd Lieut in 2nd Bn. Suffolk Regt. However his MIC states that he was originally a Sjt 22737 in 12th Bn SWB. This ties in with one of the numbers listed in one of your previous posting. He entered F&F on 2nd June 1916 and also like some of your other people, he actually came from Ipswich. Do you have any further info that maybe of use regarding the 12th Bn? Also would it be right to assume he was posted to this Bn because of his height? Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hello, Andy. I don't really have any expertise on the South Wales Borderers, but most Bantam units were at least initially raised with men who where under regulation height (Bantams were those 5' 2" tall and under). Later, transfers were sometimes of taller stature, though. Looks like Cecil was one of the original men, however. Where the family from Albrighton, Shropshire? While looking for Cecil I found mention of a report of the wounding of 39475 J Davall, SWB (Albrighton). The Times 11-12-1916. Presumably: Medal card of Davall, John Corps Regiment No Rank Monmouthshire Regiment 4207 Private South Wales Borderers 39475 Private Unfortuantely nothing on Cecil, though. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 (edited) Hi Steve Many thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, all our Davalls come from London, Suffolk or Kent - so probably no conection. However Suffolk County Council's Roll of Honour lists 2 Davalls http://www.suffolkcc.gov.uk/sro/roh/index.html Curious that the other one is a Captain in SWB. Also, can I ask why you had my man's number? Is it just from a sweep of MICs or is there another reason that you picked him up? Rgds Andy Edited 6 December , 2005 by andyspiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Just a sweep of MICs, Andy. Nothing more on him, I'm afraid. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Steve Fair enough - thanks for your help anyway. Rgds Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now