WWI School Visit Itinerary

[hirdar01]

I am planning a school visit for 2007 to the Somme and (for the first time) Verdun.

I have been to Verdun twice previously, but as a tourist. I am returning to the area with my "school head" on at Xmas and would be grateful for any tips on sites that any members think that the kids would get a lot out of. I am combining Verdun with the Somme. I am really struggling to find a decent hotel for Verdun.

Any tips?

I would love to hear from any teachers who have made a school visit to Verdun.

Cheers,

Tony.

[Neil Mackenzie]

Tony.

THE person to ask about Verdun is Christina Holstein who is a member of this forum. What she doesn't know isn't worth knowing.

Neil

[Mark Hone]

Sorry, I can't help with Verdun. It shames me to admit it , but I haven't been there either individually or with a school party.

[ypres1418]

Tony,

My daughter will be going with the school next May but only for a weekend and has been disapointed with the sites they will be seeing or rather the ones they won't be visiting. But she does know the area so as the others don't and they are restricted to time it will give them an idea i suppose. They will be visiting both Ypres and the Somme and while on the Somme will only be going to Newfoundland Park and Thiepval! She would have liked to see them going to Lochnagar, Delvil Wood, more of the cemeteries and the Tommy!

I hope your children enjoy themselves, what is the age of this group? my daughters group are 14 & 15.

Mandy

[Mark Hone]

Mandy-As a matter of interest who is your daughter's school going with? That seems a very lazy itinerary to me. No names, no packdrill-you can e-mail me off forum if you like.

[ypres1418]

Mark,

I am not sure and yes I agree it is a bit lame especially as the head of history is also a great war enthusiast like us.

I was rather hoping for better, and so was Reb. Last year the students went for a week, but why it has been shortened I don't know. I am hoping that we will be invited to the school to find out more and despite the fact that Reb will fint it embarrassing I will be asking questions,

The Ypres part of the trip----- Flanders Museum, Menin Gate for 8pm, Langermarc and Tyne Cot, again she was disappointed, I'm not able to recall if they will be going to Santuary Wood or not but at the price I don't think so.

Mandy

[Mark Hone]

As I've complained on this forum before while there are many good tour companies and guides out there, there are also a lot of 'quick buck' merchants who see school battlefield tours as a good way to fill up traditionally slow periods like October and February in their schedules. Some of their guides appear to know very little about the battlefields apart from what they've read off a crib sheet and seem all too keen to sit in the cafe while the kids run round Sanctuary Wood or make sure that their charges visit particular chocolate shops in Ieper. The fact that they just go round the same few sites with group after group giving them exactly the same spiel can't do much for their enthusiasm either, in my view.

I'm afraid I've bumped into quite a few of these people in the last few years along with the knowledgeable and inspiring. You can tell the bad ones because they're usually ?%$$&* rude as well and act as if they own the place. At Passendale Museum last year, one idiot (who had not bothered to book in advance) told his group to 'just push past' mine who were getting a guided tour while his were running through as fast as they could. This year a guide from one of the leading tour companies treated me like a piece of dirt on the esplanade at Menin Gate. I complained to the company but they have never had the courtesy to reply. Sorry, I'll stop ranting now...

[healdav]

When you say Verdun at Xmas what exactly do you mean?

I shall be on holiday from 24 December until about 6 January, but would be available for places NOT on the tourist route in the general Verdun area (northern half of th St. Mihiel salient). Either that or contact Christina. I know that she is in principle available right through the holiday (in fact, she is going to Verdun on holiday during the holiday!).

By the way, I've taken school children around before and not had complaints. I carry a load of stuff for them (or anyone else) to see - photos, maps, documents, artefacts. They go into the front line trenches and will even end up as experts on barbed wire.

Ernst Junger even figures in the places I take them.

[hirdar01]

Thanks for replying, Folks!

Just wanted to say that I agree with Mark's comments. The amount of rubbish I hear in passing from "guides" taking school groups to Ieper and the Somme is an outrage. I agree with Mark, that it is laziness from the "quick buck" brigade; who want to make money on a popular GCSE topic.

In reply to Mandy, The children I take over are Y10 and upwards; our GCSE and 'A' Level cohorts. Thanks for your advice.

Tony.

[kerry]

I'm not sure whether the question for Verdun was a hotel or also where to go. If the latter, then certainly the underground Verdun citadel/WW1 hospital cum Div HQ is well worth a visit. Also the ossuary at the French War Cemetery, Fort Vaux and or Fort Doaument, and if you can squeeze it in, any of the 6 'lost' villages such as Orne.

Walks in the woods are not recommended owing to the amount of ordnance still littering the battleground. Also, with reagrd to the Chidren Act and duty of care, don't take them to any of the other forts to the east and south of the city which are overgrown and dangerous.

Can't help on hotels I'm afraid.

Kerry

[ypres1418]

Tony,

I hope they enjoy themselves.

Reb is in Y10 and has believe it or not finished the WW1 subject!!!!!! She has moved class and so has missed some out. I thought the class before was racing through but the other one must not have done much and I'm not sure if they will actually understand or appreciate what they are going to see, which is a great shame.

Reb has been warned about signing in the registers (I know she won't be problem but her friends might be), as a bug bear of mine is the inane comments made by some school parties but if this is how they have been taught then they obviously know nothing of what they are seeing and I suppose we can not fault the children but the teachers teaching them.

Ok rant over.

Let us know how you all get on.

Mandy

[Michelle Young]

My eldest son is a year 10 as well. (In fact I remember him and Mandys daughter Reb gurgling away in their pushchairs at Thiepval on July 1st 1991, and like Mandys 2 children, my 2 have been visiting the battlefields since they were in utero!)

Toms school visit is next May, obviously we haven't had any details as yet, but like Mandy I will be intruiged to find out the itinerary, and will be asking questions if needs be!

Michelle

[Stuart Roper]

Lots of perfectly valid comments in relation to school trips. As a teacher myself, I often feel that I could do a much better job than some of the guides we have had in the past on our battlefields visit. However, using Belgian guides when we are on the salient is good for the students in terms of listening to someone from another country I believe.

The GCSE course does allow for greater depth of study but most schools learn about the Great War in Year Nine and may not study (formally) any history after this point. Year Nine trips therefore tend to provide an introduction to the subject. Similarly, the whole of the 20th century is to be taught at our school in one year and the time devoted to the Great War is by definition limited. We have built up resources to a sufficient level to be able to visit the graves of local men and tell personal stories which allows students to access fully the notion of why we should remember..

Each year I feel the weight of knowing that I must inspire my students squarely on my shoulders, so much so that when I am about to teach my first lesson on the topic, I find it hard to sleep the night before.

In March of next year, we will participate in the ceremony at the Menin Gate. The student who reads the exhortation, the two students who lay the wreath and those who stand and observe will then create the next generation who can tell their sons and daughters why they were there and why they should do the same.

I would encourage parents with knowledge to participate in helping the school to deliver the topic in a better way, it would be all too easy to criticise. Many history teachers have a sound knowledge of many topics but members of this forum quite clearly know more!

Any forum member who lives in the Somerset area would be welcome to visit our school in March of next year where students can take you on a tour of our town to talk to you about local men who fought. Since I joined this forum, all members have improved my teaching and therefore helped me to inspire the kids, this partnership is vital.

[Guest Simon Bull]

a bug bear of mine is the inane comments made by some school parties but if this is how they have been taught then they obviously know nothing of what they are seeing and I suppose we can not fault the children but the teachers teaching them.

Ok rant over.

Let us know how you all get on.

Mandy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mandy, with respect, I think that is a bit unfair - the teacher may have taught adequately but the pupil may have elected to ignore what was taught, in which case the fault, perhaps, lies with the parents who should have dragged the child up better! As the spouse of a teacher (heavily involved with discipline and similar issues) I do get a bit annoyed when children's bad behaviour is blamed on teachers - ultimately it is the parents who set standards. Indeed, all too often attempts to set standards by teachers are frustrated by parents who will not support any discipline the teacher imposes. I am afraid that the attempt to blame children's bad behaviour on teachers (when the primary responsibility lies with parents) is very dispiriting and demoralising for the teaching profession.

[ypres1418]

Simon,

I hear what you are saying but on the trips you don't see the parents only the teachers, and most parents don't know any more than the children. Rebekah has been signing the registers for quite a while now and somtetimes has been upset by what other children have written and I must say some adults too. Rebekah knows how to behave on the battlefields and I am hopeful that there will be no bad comments on the children's behaviour. But I will let you all know when they are going so anyone who sees them can report back to me, if they see anything untoward.

I have on occasion seen schools where the behaviour of school children has been exemplory and have always taken the time to congratulate the leader of these, thankfully over the last few years this has far out numbered the ones whose pupils have been left to run riot.

Stuart,

In our school in year nine they get an opener for ten! In fact they cover the great war in two weeks. Rebekah missed one of them due to illness but that did not matter to her as she knew a little of what was said and they got no homework either.

When they were discussing the forthcoming trip the teacher was watching Rebekah very closely but for once (as she is on a good behaviour watch at the moment) she kept her mouth shut and her comments to herself until she got home! A first for her!

Mandy

[Mark Hone]

Stuart- Have you considered doing the guiding yourself? I was very apprehensive myself when I started but I have now been getting away with it for 12 years. I do rope in local experts where I can (e.g. Forum pals Kristof and Charlotte) but I tell myself I enjoy the guiding and the research that goes along with it.

[Stuart Roper]

Mark,

Yes, I have considered this but I still believe that the students should learn to hear from 'outside' guests. The visit should be there to consolidate knowledge and understanding as the students have already completed an enquiry. I try and pride myself on my creativity as a teacher and I am at present editing a video presentation that can be watched on the coach journey whilst en route to locations. For example a visit to the 'sunken lane' on the Somme is of little significance to the students unless they can understand why they are going there. Seeing the image of Hawthorn mine going up also helps to bring understanding of location.

As a teacher, you get a feeling of what works. Images, stories of individuals and quite often, original documents help to stimulate their thinking. Attempting to speak to a group of some 50+ kids is in itself, tough!

Perhaps I could hijack this thread slightly and ask for good ideas that guides use outside of simply verbal explanations?

Mandy,

If you would like to see a sample of some of our KS3 work (it includes lots of copies of original documents, census returns, stories from newspapers etc.) please PM me, it is incredible what can be achieved. Your daughters school possibly concentrates on the Great War less in KS3 because of their syllabus at KS4? However, two weeks sounds, well, odd! We devote a whole half-term to the subject.

[Mark Hone]

A few ideas I have used on my tours:

Using eyewitness accounts read out by staff/pupils at the actual locations. Used in conjunction with trench maps/war diaries and equipment. Last year, for example we retraced the attack made by 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers near St Julian on 31st July 1917 using the account of Lt T.H. Floyd, an old boy of our school. With copies of the original 55th Division trench map we were able to go to the locations he described plus we had Pal Kristof with us (in 1917 LF kit) who was able to recreate, for example, Floyd's description of putting on his respirator. This year we retraced the attack of Dehra Dun Brigade at Aubers Ridge on 9th May 1915, during which two Bury Grammar School boys were killed. The main prop here was a Gurkha Kukri provided by the Nepalese boy on the tour!

Next year I hope to retrace a couple of actions on the Somme, including the Manchester Pals at Montauban, JRR Tolkien at Ovillers and 10th Royal Welsh Fusiliers at Delville Wood, an attack in which my great-uncle took part.

Re-enacting the trial of Private William Smith using the original trial transcript, before visiting his grave and place of executon at Reningelst.

Recreation of Great War concert party/singalong on the last night of the tour. Who said kids today won't sing?

I have taken groups of 60 the last two years and reluctantly took a megaphone, but was able to dispense with it on both tours. We were lucky with the weather, I must admit. Wind is the real problem, as I discovered on a blustery day at Marston Moor a few years ago when even my stentorian tones were inadequate!

Next year I am going back to 40, which is easier logistically for a start-60 people take nearly ten minutes to get off the coach!

[Dave Phillips]

Mark

How did you get a Kukri past customs?

I always have to confiscate purchased knives whilst on European trips and once had to account for them at customs!

Dave

[Mark Hone]

Dave- To quote the late Oliver Norvell Hardy: 'I have nothing to say'.

[healdav]

When I take a group into the German front line I always read out to them a paragraph from Junger's 'Copse 125' where he describes repelling a British trench raid.

It's amazing, but although he was writing in way over in Flanders the trnech system in Lorraine is precisely as he describes it.

Anyway, it's a brilliant evocation of fighting in the trenches.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

As I've complained on this forum before while there are many good tour companies and guides out there, there are also a lot of 'quick buck' merchants who see school battlefield tours as a good way to fill up traditionally slow periods like October and February in their schedules. Some of their guides appear to know very little about the battlefields apart from what they've read off a crib sheet and seem all too keen to sit in the cafe while the kids run round Sanctuary Wood or make sure that their charges visit particular chocolate shops in Ieper. The fact that they just go round the same few sites with group after group giving them exactly the same spiel can't do much for their enthusiasm either, in my view.

I'm afraid I've bumped into quite a few of these people in the last few years along with the knowledgeable and inspiring. You can tell the bad ones because they're usually ?%$$&* rude as well and act as if they own the place. At Passendale Museum last year, one idiot (who had not bothered to book in advance) told his group to 'just push past' mine who were getting a guided tour while his were running through as fast as they could. This year a guide from one of the leading tour companies treated me like a piece of dirt on the esplanade at Menin Gate. I complained to the company but they have never had the courtesy to reply. Sorry, I'll stop ranting now...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mark

You have a point, but there is a danger of generalisation (although you tried to avoid it).

I am a local guide and have done many tours with youngsters. The thing is that

- many schools are completely not prepared. Try to do something with them in three hours (sometimes even two, which is completely ridiculous).

- someone coming over for the first time wants to see the "highlights". Almost impossible then to skip Langemark or Tyne Cot. I would prefer to do "Canadians at Passchendaele" or "Irish on the Frezenberg", but that is not what they want from me. And it's not my tour, it's theirs.

- if a different approach is wanted from a guide, it is only too fair to warn him or her about this (in time). Preparation is the key to succes. In the last four years I have only had once or twice a special request.

- Disciplin: it has been discussed here earlier. Some (and I stress "some") teachers are arriving and handing over the group to you, not only for explanation but also for the rest. I have no problem in making a remark when necessary, but I cannot replace a teacher who knows his pupils.

- If I warn them about going to a certain trench system and offer an alternative, most of them are simply not interested. It's on their list. Finished.

- From time to time you see groups guided by their own teachers. Some are doing extremely well, but in other cases it is just a War poetry/ SAD-tour. These subjects are interesting, but if you isolate or overemphasize them they become irrelevant.

I will finish with this: a few years ago I had a Swedish group, average age about 25 year. I was told that these were the future leading people of Sweden, that I shouldn't tell too much about the historical facts (which are imho the context) but emphasise on the personal stories. All within two hours off course. I do strongly believe in using personal stories, but not if not set in their context. This as an illustration of the difference between my way of plannning an ideal tour and the expectations of the group which is with me.

You are coming with your group, you know them, you prepare them. That is almost a guarantee for succes. But be aware that you are belonging to a small minority!

Erwin

[Mark Hone]

Erwin-I appreciate that I am in a fairly unusual position, being a teacher who also acts as the guide and whose hobby is First World War research. The fact that each tour is different is part of the selling point, rather than seeing 'highlights'. I wasn't actually criticizing local guides like yourself in my rant, but the rather unpleasant British guides, employed by some of the big tour companies I might add, that I have had the misfortune to encounter in the last couple of years. These are still in the minority, thankfully, but seem to be growing in number as the school battlefield tour market expands.

Like you, I wish that schools would do a modicum of preparation before they come, it's not difficult now with CWGC, this forum etc and go to visit a site with a local connection say, rather than simply trooping round cemeteries going 'how sad' and reading out a Wilfred Owen poem. I find that it has far more resonance with the pupils, but that's my particular hobby-horse.