The very first trenches

[Jon Miller]

While watching the first programme in the 'Finding the Fallen', it was continually being drummed into the viewer that the trenches that the group were excavating were the first of the War. I was a little surprised at this, as I had imagined that the first trenches would have been dug along the Chemin des Dames in Sept 1914 when the first stalemate of the war occurred. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[BatterySergeantMajor]

While watching the first programme in the 'Finding the Fallen', it was continually being drummed into the viewer that the trenches that the group were excavating were the first of the War.  I was a little surprised at this, as I had imagined that the first trenches would have been dug along the Chemin des Dames in Sept 1914 when the first stalemate of the war occurred.  Can anyone shed any light on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are first trenches? The Belgian Army made some hastily digged trenches on their retreat, BEF and French will have done the same. Or do you mean organised, planned trench systems? I think it is impossible to tell what were the first trenches of the war.

Erwin

[CROONAERT]

While watching the first programme in the 'Finding the Fallen', it was continually being drummed into the viewer that the trenches that the group were excavating were the first of the War.  I was a little surprised at this, as I had imagined that the first trenches would have been dug along the Chemin des Dames in Sept 1914 when the first stalemate of the war occurred.  Can anyone shed any light on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You and not the programme (though I don't know the whereabouts of where they were excavating) are correct, Jon.

I believe that the first static entrenchments (though others were dug in defensive positions earlier) were dug in the vicinity of Vailly on the Aisne as from Sept 14/15th 1914.

The Official History of the War Military Ops. france and Belgium 1914 vol. 1 gives quite a few details of this occurance and even a short "rundown" of the recent history of and the birth of the "modern" trench warfare (pages 430 - 434). This source is readily available (and is even free online!) so the researchers for the programme really don't have an excuse for getting it wrong.

Dave. (I'll take a look for those maps this week, by the way)

[BatterySergeantMajor]

(and is even free online!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"free online"?

Erwin

[CROONAERT]

"free online"?

Erwin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just that one volume. It's been transcribed and published on a website. I'm unsure if all maps are included. I can't remember the URL for the website as I deleted in on recieving a hardcopy of the book, but it has been mentioned in a thread on here quite recently.

Dave.

[Light Bob]

Hi

The Battalion Diaries of 11th Brigade refer to digging trenches and outposts on the line above Bucy Le Long after crossing the Aisne on 12/13th September 1914. By the end of the month their was an extensive trench system running along their section of the front.

Brigadier General Hunter Weston wrote

'My trenches are a dream, as made by my men. Officers of other brigades and officers also of the French Army, who are in touch with us, on my left, come round to see them as one of the sights. They are dry, roomy, comfortable, roofed and in fact almost cosy. The men give their different posts and trenches definite names such as “Woodbine Villa”, “Wheatsheaf Inn”, or such and such a trench. They are very proud of their work and very happy. The sick rate in these trenches north of Bucy was less than in our barracks at Colchester. I look after my men though I work them hard'

A message from him 30th September reads

From: 11th Brigade

To: Rifle Brigade, Hampshires, East Lancs, Somerset L.I.

Time: 1015

Brigadier General is desirous that all officers of the battalions should profit from the experience of entrenching under active service conditions, which is now afforded by our section of defence. He is of the opinion that most of the work as now executed is admirable. He directs therefore that commanding officers will go round the whole section of defence with half the officers of their battalion today and with the other half tomorrow pointing out for instruction purposes good and bad points of various works.

(from my book 'Good Old Somersets')

Brian

[CROONAERT]

Just that one volume. It's been transcribed and published on a website. I'm unsure if all maps are included. I can't remember the URL for the website as I deleted in on recieving a hardcopy of the book, but it has been mentioned in a thread on here quite recently.

Dave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Found it!

Click HERE to see it.

Dave. (Chapter 21 includes the section I mentioned above. Read from the first map in this chapter onwards.)

[Paul Reed]

I would agree with Dave and Brian - and indeed Jon: the first major trench system was on the Aisne, not in Flanders. Some of those early trenches are still there, and they feature in the Timewatch programme '1914 The War Revolution' : perhaps the makers and contribuors to 'Finding the Fallen' should have watched it?

[Mike McCarthy]

I don't think they claimed that the were the first trenches of the war, just that they were the first trenches in the Ypres sector. That makes more sense. NML are professionals and whilst that first programme was a little thin, the Loos one more than made up for it.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Found it!

Click HERE to see it.

Dave. (Chapter 21 includes the section I mentioned above. Read from the first map in this chapter onwards.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Dave, this is very usefull.

Erwin

[Paul Reed]

I don't think they claimed that the were the first trenches of the war, just that they were the first trenches in the Ypres sector.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Mike, the programme claimed throughout that the field where they were digging in Flanders was the 'birthplace' of trench warfare, or some such. Comments by contributors seemed to confirm this thesis, or they would do to the casual viewer.

[Jon Miller]

My thanks to all who have contributed. It's a relief to know that I had the right idea in the first place. Special thanks to Dave, whose brilliant find from the net is yet another example of the time he will spend for the benefit of those of us who lag far behind his cartographical (is that a real word?) knowledge. And also to Brian, who has boosted my morale tremendously by deeming my thread worthy of some really good input, when clearly he is very particular as to when he contributes to a thread.

Thanks all.

[Mike McCarthy]

Hi Paul,

It happens I'm seeing Andy Robertshaw at NAM Friday and will raise it with him.

Maybe he didn't write the script and some lazy writing crept in.

Maybe I read between the lines and only heard it as 'in Ypres' as clearly the digging started much sooner elsewhere.

Maybe I'm geting old and losing it

[Martin Brown]

Morning All

Mike is correct. We didn't write the script and had very little control over the voice overs. And, for the record, we didn't believe these to be the first ever trenches of the Great War.

What we wanted to do was present an example of the birthplace of trench warfare. I suspect there are lots of examples that could claim to be The First but these were a good example. Also the A19 wasn't going to trash some of the other examples, here there was a clear threat to the site and it needed evaluating, and there was an amenable landowner. Of course what happens in the edit is another matter, as Paul will now from other experiences of his.

Obviously I don't know as much as some posters here but I would say that anyone who's done TV like this will know that you get a camera shoved in your face and are expected to say meaningful things when one is actually thinking about the archaeology/the bodies/the cold etc etc

Oh and I seem to recall Andy being in the marvellous Timewatch so we might have some knowledge of it and its contents!

Finally. it's a programme for the general viewer. They need to know how it began and why, not exactly to the GPS positioned, time definite moment etc. Obviously our academic reports and other publications will not make any such claims about these being the first trenches but will GPS position them and do all the things that make for professional archaeological work.

Glad to see interest continues.

[jonprice]

Hi guys.

Language is always a tricky business isn't it. As the on site supervisor who recognised the first french foxholes we uncovered i think there are a few things to say.

The idea that a technique or technology has a tightly defined specific birthplace is of course not phenomenologically true. Soldiers have been digging trenches since the development of viable missile weapons. The "classic" trench warfare of the Great War was nothing new, indeed for an example of independant parrallel development the Maori trench technology of the 1860s includes pretty well everything we consider to be Great War (bomb shelters, bendy trenches to prevent fire along them (sorry I dont know the correct Maori term) etc. and I assume the Maori didnt send any training cadres to the US in time for their civil war.

All the soldiers at the start of the war will have had an understanding of the idea of trenches, it is just that they wouldnt necessarily see them as an essential feature of battles in the open countryside. The example of the Aisne trenches of September is unlikely to have made it in any detailed training sense to the hard pressed men on the Belgian front. My grandfather was too busy staying awake long enough to feed his horses to get any serious training before the battle of (first) Ypres. The same probably applied to the colonial French troops who dog our trenches. But why should it. Troops in static positions like the Aisne hinge would have made trenches first, as this was established doctrine (just read Duffers Drift)

So what we had on site was a line of French foxholes which were overlain by very scrappy basic German trenches and dugouts. Some yards across the field we had an equally scrappy line of French trenches. All were within fairly tight dating margins. So we had a French colonial unit or units, moving from foxhole construction to trenchline, with an opposing german trenchline. Obviously this went on all along the contact zone. Prior to this the forces in Belgium wouldnt have seen a need as they were in a mobile phase. So no defined birthplace, but a visible process taking place across a space within a defined time slot. The point when mobile warfare stopped, and trench warfare began. Or in media shorthand "the birthplace of trench warfare".

Certainely in any case the first place that the birth process of trench warfare in the Great War has been archaeologically visible on one site.

[Jon Miller]

Thanks to Martin and John for their lengthy explainations. While I feel a bit embarrassed that my nit-picking has caused them to go to such lengths in the first place, I'm also annoyed that it seems that whoever is in charge of the voiceover in such programmes holds virtually all power as to the public reception of said programme. A casual commentary has now twice made me comment in recent days, taking the edge away from the hard-worked upon core of a programme. Whilst my comments I feel have been correct, they must be tiresome to those who have worked hard on the programmes, and have had their hard work placed completely at the command of scriptwriters, etc.

And I have to admit that I'm well aware of a man from a local village being killed in the Crimean War - in the TRENCHES in front of Sebastapol.

[CROONAERT]

So what we had on site was a line of French foxholes which were overlain by very scrappy basic German trenches and dugouts. Some yards across the field we had an equally scrappy line of French trenches. All were within fairly tight dating margins. So we had a French colonial unit or units, moving from foxhole construction to trenchline, with an opposing german trenchline. Obviously this went on all along the contact zone. Prior to this the forces in Belgium wouldnt have seen a need as they were in a mobile phase. So no defined birthplace, but a visible process taking place across a space within a defined time slot. The point when mobile warfare stopped, and trench warfare began. Or in media shorthand "the birthplace of trench warfare".

Not having been able to view the programme in question, can I ask the location of the place we're talking about, please?

Cheers,

dave.

[andigger]

Glad to see interest continues.

Martin - just curious if either this episode or the one on Loos is available to those of us who don't get 'the local channels'. I would be very interested to see these shows.

The "classic" trench warfare of the Great War was nothing new, indeed for an example of independant parrallel development the Maori trench technology of the 1860s includes pretty well everything we consider to be Great War

Of course Sebastopol was not the first British trench system. There are still surviving, and well preserved British trenches from Yorktown (1781).

BTW... Perhaps this needs another thread, but I wondering how 'easy' it was to dig trenches. Of course a lot of that has to do with the enemy interest in your activity, but I have been interested to know what quality of trench could be dug overnight. For example, in Most Unfavourable Ground there is description of men digging new forward trenches over night as they consolidated their position.

Andy

[CROONAERT]

BTW... Perhaps this needs another thread, but I wondering how 'easy' it was to dig trenches. Of course a lot of that has to do with the enemy interest in your activity, but I have been interested to know what quality of trench could be dug overnight. For example, in Most Unfavourable Ground there is description of men digging new forward trenches over night as they consolidated their position.

Andy

Andy.

Quite a high quality, (deep, well camouflaged, relatively comfortable when "off stag" and effective) trench can quite easily be dug overnight. Obviously it depends on ground conditions, etc, but they can also be covered without trace and redug elsewhere within the same night.(several times, dependant on the situation!!!! )

Believe me - I've dug enough of these to know!!!!

Dave.

[Martin Brown]

Asking questions is no problem. We are members of this board so we can join debate about these issues.

in terms of the programmes being shown elsewhere I simply don't know, I'm just a bloke down a hole so you'd bneed to as Discovery UK about plans to show them elsewhere I'm afraid.

Martin

[Borden Battery]

Here is a small "tid-bit" that speaks to the character of General Hunter Weston from some recently re-discovered transcripts by Raymond Brutinel. - Borden Battery

Tape 22: Brutinel Summoned to Le Touquet - Paris Plage Conference

During the winter 1917 - 1918, it became evident that the Germans were preparing for a vast offensive operation in the early days of 1918. This opinion was confirmed by the instructions issued by Field Marshall Ludendorf then Head of the General Staff of the German Army. These, in turn, were followed by instructions issued by the French G.H.Q., more or less inspired by the understanding they had of the German plans, and by the British G.H.Q., very much worried by the falling manpower of the British Army.

The 5th British Army had been re-organised under the command of General Gough, and the Army boundaries had been readjusted accordingly. Obviously the 5th Army area was over extended.

Instructions issued by British G.H.Q. regarding the organisation of the areas gave rise to great differences of opinion.

The falling in manpower induced British G.H.Q. to consider the reduction of the number of machine guns in a Division in order to maintain a given number of rifles in the depleted Battalions.

The project of reducing the number of machine guns gave rise to protestations, chiefly from Army Corps and Divisional Commanders and a conference was called to take place at Le Touquet - Paris Plage.

Brigadier General Bonham Carter of the British G.H.Q. was detailed to explain the views of the British G.H.Q. to the Commanders, allay their misgivings and secure their approval.

The first conference ended in some confusion when Lieut. General Sir Hunter Weston requested that the Canadian Corps Machine Gun Officer should be heard before any decision be taken. The General stated, "We are not going to decide anything in this matter until we have heard the point of view of Brutinel".

The meeting was then adjourned and I was instructed by wire to report to Le Touquet the next day.

I arrived early in the morning and was intercepted by an Officer who asked me to see General Bonham Carter immediately.

I called on General Bonham Carter and he explained at length that after a great deal of thought and consideration, British G.H.Q. had decided on a policy consistent with their falling manpower and that this policy was the object of discussion in the conference in progress. I had been called in consultation at the request of some of the Corps Commanders but he hoped that I would take into consideration the fact that British G.H.Q. had viewed this question from all angles and he therefore expected that I would support the proposals.

I replied that I had no knowledge of the proposals and therefore could not very well understand what was meant, but if General Bonham Carter suggested that I was to go to the conference merely to support the unknown proposals of the British G.H.Q., then I had better go back to my car and return to Corps Headquarters.

The Canadians were not concerned with these projects, their Administration being autonomous.

I would only agree to attend the Conference with an open mind.

Then we went into the meeting. General Bonham Carter reminded all General Officers present of the object of this Conference and he hoped that all would now agree with the point of view of British General Staff.

At this point, General Hunter Weston intervened and said, "Well, we had adjourned the meeting expecting to hear Brutinel. Is he here?" and upon being informed that I was he said, "A1right, let us hear what he has to say regarding the proposal."

My remarks were to the effect that the policy of reducing the number of machine guns would not remedy the shortage of men in the Infantry Brigades but would undoubtedly lower their fire power. I suggested that, on the contrary, the number of machine guns should be increased proportionally to improve, or at least maintain, the fire power of the Infantry Brigades. A11 commanders gave signs that they approved the point of views had expressed and one Infantry Brigadier stood up to say, "I have generally been against any increase of machine guns at the expense of the Infantry Battalions, but things being what they are, I am willing to let go men if my fire power is maintained by a reasonable increase of machine guns.

The Conference ended, as expected, inconclusively.