Killing of deserters by CO justified?

[NIGEL]

Let him answer the question he is in charge of a group of soldiers and has light years of experience---i want to know what he is going to do to get us all home safely---just as Egberts grandad did

Come on SIR !!!! The enemy are with in range and will spot our position in a few secs private spike and his mates are just about to leg it and give away our position------ what shall we do!!!!!! we only have seconds!!!

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Let him answer the question he is in charge of a group of soldiers and has light years of experience---i want to know what he is going to do to get us all home safely---just as Egberts grandad did

Come on SIR !!!!  The enemy are with in range and will spot our position in a few secs  private spike and his mates are just about to leg it and give away our position------ what shall we do!!!!!!  we only have seconds!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lead by example?

[NIGEL]

And your example is?????-------and could you answer the question properly???

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

And your example is?????-------and could you answer the question properly???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nigel old sweat you would not survive five minutes in the real world

I have a name for someone like you

--edited-- Whether you have names for fellow members is immaterial. You will NOT use them here. Personal abuse is not allowed.

Edited 19 November , 2005 by Kate Wills

[NIGEL]

I wont reply on Egberts thread Jimmy try elswhere

[Guest]

I was speaking from a historical perspective.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And from a historical perspective, it was not uncommon - in fact it was common - for officers to dress in other rank uniform in the front line and carry a rifle.

And one of the reasons for the unauthorised practice of wearing rank badges on the epaulets (authorised for tropical dress only) was because the cuff badges stood out too much.

[Guest]

Nigel old sweat you would not survive five minutes in the real world

I have a name for someone like you

----edited----

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Raising the intellectual level of the discussion again I see, Jimmy.

[Guest]

The original post was hypothetical and I am always uneasy about such questions. However..............

Shooting in this situation would not be summary execution in the sense of imposing an arbitrary punishment. It would be instead maybe the only viable way of preserving discipline and preventing the collapse of the position.

I don't think that if troops are on the verge of acting in this way shouting "I will report you if I survive this" is going to help. In fact it could just ensure that the officer is the one who cops the bullet.

[spike10764]

Nigel old sweat you would not survive five minutes in the real world

I have a name for someone like you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice man......

[truthergw]

This one is warming up nicely. Plentiful supply of brightly coloured fish being pulled around. The question was whether an officer in 1914 was justified in shooting a man who was refusing to carry out a lawful command. In the case of a major British attack, the officer would not be on his own. There would be NCOs there as well. There would also be a sizeable contingent of MPs not far away, acting as backstop. There are quite a few stories about them but that's another topic.

[egbert]

This one is warming up nicely. Plentiful supply of brightly coloured fish being pulled around. The question was whether an officer in 1914 was justified in shooting a man who was refusing to carry out a lawful command. In the case of a major British attack, the officer would not be on his own. There would be NCOs there as well. There would also be a sizeable contingent of MPs not far away, acting as backstop. There are quite a few stories about them but that's another topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

to be more precise: it was no static trench warfare then, it was the run to the Marne, pardon Paris. Grandfather was a senior NCO rank and obviously platoon leader?? on 7 Oct 1914, the field letter from 9 Oct 1914 states he is NOW the CO 9th company

[truthergw]

to be more precise: it was no static trench warfare then, it was the run to the Marne, pardon Paris. Grandfather was a senior NCO rank and obviously platoon leader?? on 7 Oct 1914, the field letter from 9 Oct 1914 states he is NOW the CO 9th company

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Egbert, I should have checked back. I was a bit impatient at the way the thread was wandering off. This then was prior to the 5th September? By 7th October, The German forces were consolidating their positions on the Aisne and the " Race for the Sea" was getting underway.

[egbert]

truthergw: The battle raged 7 Oct 1914, and he wrote to his spouse a letter, dated 9 Oct 1914 with the referenced text

[Paul Hodges]

Dear Egbert

Fascinating thread (shame about some of the responses but...), so thanks for this.

From my reading of mainly British officers texts, further to truthergw's comments which I support, there does seem to be a certain amount of obsessing about the necessity of 'stopping the rot' in this manner. One particularly extreme example is General F. P. Crozier's The Men I Killed memoir which is mostly about this issue (and his experiences on three occasions) and his subsequent strong resulting pacifism.

Best wishes

Paul

[egbert]

Dear Egbert

Fascinating thread (shame about some of the responses but...), so thanks for this....

Paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Paul, we have a time difference of 7 hrs. If you'd be awake late late last night, you should have seen my response on the real trivial stuff that was ongoing then. But a good friend advised me to remove it, which I did at a time when the first Brits go for a stroll with their dogs

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Egbert

Although I feel challenged by Nigel and some others and am very tempted to reply, I won't do this in this thread out of respect for you and the story of your granddad which should not be hijacked.

I have the feeling that the parallel discussion is going on dangerous tracks, so I will send Nigel a PM with my answer.

Maybe we should have restricted the question to the Great War, actualising the problem may be on the edge of what Forum Rules allow.

Having said this, I stick to my first reply.

Erwin

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

Nigel old sweat you would not survive five minutes in the real world

I have a name for someone like you

--edited--    Whether you have names for fellow members is immaterial. You will NOT use them here. Personal abuse is not allowed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Awwwwwww fancy not letting me use my pet name for him

[NIGEL]

Awwwwwww fancy not letting me use my pet name for him

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jimmy i think the rest of us if in the trenches with you would gladly shoot you whether you had run away or not, infact i dont think we would bother to turn away and count to ten

Jimmy can i just add--i dont why i am honoured to be singled out for your sniping, but like i said yesterday take it elsewhere and not in Egberts thread because as we know not only is it Egbert's thread but it is very personal to him being about actions taken by his grandad. Now when your sniping starts it doesnt just aim at me it hits Egbert aswell.

So if you cant behave or have an issue with me take it elsewhere and not here

[Malte Znaniecki]

Jimmy i think the rest of us if in the trenches with you would gladly shoot you whether you had run away or not, infact i dont think we would bother to turn away and count to ten

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So could we get back to topic now, please ?

[Guest jonny956]

I had an interesting and (for me) thought provoking chat to a veteren on Nov 12th at a Dinner night here in Ottawa. This old Pl Comd with the MC actually cried whilst telling me how he shot at the ground to stop a young soldier legging it in the face of the enemy. The next round was going to be at the man. Fear is contagious, but it haunted him still. It is all too easy for arm chair historians (amateur or otherwise) to sit in the cold light of day and pontificate...........

As a serving Officer in the regular British Army, could I do it? In the right circumstances, damn right I could and please forgive me if I suggest that there are few people on this Forum who can have any notion of what is involved and the personal tormoil that goes with such an action.

[truthergw]

truthergw: The battle raged 7 Oct 1914, and he wrote to his spouse a letter, dated 9 Oct 1914 with the referenced text

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for the scan. I will now retire with an enlarged printout and a dictiomary to read it. I have lost any facility in reading Gothic type I may ever have had.

[egbert]

Thank you for the scan. I will now retire with an enlarged printout and a dictiomary to read it. I have lost any facility in reading Gothic type I may ever have had.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tell us about your progress, because the battle is described over 9 pages; if successful I can scan the rest. But first we need a "KillRep" from 1st page

[Borderman]

Thanks Egbert, very interesting thread, but I’m fascinated by what answer you want. Many members have put much thought and cerebral effort into this thread and I wonder if we are missing the point.

I’m no expert on the ‘German rule book’ from the Great War, although I know a Bundeswier officer would face severe repercussions for such an act if committed since 1946; what ever the circumstances.

I have a fair knowledge of the Queen’s Regulations, which differ surprisingly little in most respects since 1914.

A British officer who commits such an act would face a Courts Marshal and as such be tried by his peers. I would imagine such a course of action would/should have been taken by the German Army of 1914-18 and so he should have been judged by his contemporaries (Although they must have substantially changed their rules for the 1939-45 fracas).

In other words your relation can not be judged by myself, serving officers, the members of this forum or anyone alive today. If he was, I don’t give much for his chances.

Sorry, but you put this forward.

All the best.

[egbert]

Borderman, the thread is running fine! I accept both opinions -pro/contra. What i expected? Very simple: a feeling whether I shall uncover my Granddad's story in a Brit forum. My first question to myself was: is a Brit run forum ripe for this extreme case from "the other side", and still today (after considerable evolving of the thread) I believe=yes! I felt comfortable at a certain point and decided to just do it. I do not regret. It shows the devastating effect on individuals -those being shot as deserters and those shooting deserters

[Borderman]

Fair point.