Mike McCarthy Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 Can anybody advise how many British and German Divisions were rotated into the battle. Also if (as clearly would be the case) Divisions were given the honour of appearing more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 13 November , 2005 Share Posted 13 November , 2005 Details of Somme divisions - British ones - on my Somme site at: http://www.somme-1916.com/somme_divisions.htm This section is not complete yet - but it does at least list them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike McCarthy Posted 14 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Thank you Paul, much appreciated, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Mike Appendix IV to my book The German Army on the Somme 1914-1916 contains the complete German order of battle: dates, places, commanders, army subordination etc. It was based on German official sources and I am confident that it is accurate. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Evans of the Broke Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Can anybody advise how many British and German Divisions were rotated into the battle. Also if (as clearly would be the case) Divisions were given the honour of appearing more than once. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Divisions engaged: German Reichsarchiv Figures 48 Divisions engaged once 43 Divisions engaged twice 4 Divisions engaged three times Total: 95 Divisions British estimate made by Professor Sir Charles Oman 1928 46 Divisions engaged once 33 Divisions engaged twice 4 Divisions engaged three times Total: 83 Divisions And here's a fillip from Haig's dispatch afterwards: The German Army is the mainstay of the Central Powers, and a full half of that Army, despite all the advantages of the defensive, supported by the strongest fortifications, suffered defeat on the Somme this year. Neither the victors nor the vanquished will forget this; and, though bad weather has given the enemy a respite, there will undoubtedly be many thousands in his ranks who will begin the new campaign with little confidence in their ability to resist our assaults or to overcome our defence. Our new Armies entered the battle with the determination to win and with confidence in their power to do so. They have proved to themselves, to the enemy, and to the world that this confidence was justified, and in the fierce struggle they have been through they have learned many valuable lessons which will help them in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike McCarthy Posted 14 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Thank you one and all, Jack: your book is on the Xmas list. Thanks for the inspiration. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Mike No problems- it's a pleasure, If you need a further breakdown to regiments, let me know. I'm not offering to tackle the whole thing because the list would be enormous, but information on particular divisions would be no problem - just ask. I should just add that published lists about the German ORBAT are frequently incomplete or inaccurate. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WMARTIN Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Paul, Looks like a great site with a lot of work put in. Couldn't get you to do the 15th Scottish Division next could I? Especially the 13th Batt Royal Scots? Thought not, but worth a try. Your sites been added to my favourites anyway, keep up the good work. Awrabest Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffy Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Perhaps more informative is not so much how many times Divisions were rotated into the Somme but the casualties they endured. The highest casualties by Division were 30th - 17374 18th - 13,323 21st - 13,044 5th - 12667 17th - 12,613 The lowest 37th - 2000 46th - 2648 38th - 3876 63rd - 4075 1st Canadian - 7469 Of the Dominion forces the New Zealand Division suffered the highest casualties - 9408 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Perhaps more informative is not so much how many times Divisions were rotated into the Somme but the casualties they endured.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Surely the number of times they fight is directly related to the number of casualties? For example, all the lowest casualty divisions you list only fought one major action in 1916; those with the highesy fought two or more engagements on the Somme - thus higher casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffy Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Forgot to mention, that in addition to the 44 British Divisions which fought we should not forget the 3 Australian, 4 Canadian and 1 New Zealand Division which also took part. A total of 52 Divisions in total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffy Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Surely the number of times they fight is directly related to the number of casualties? For example, all the lowest casualty divisions you list only fought one major action in 1916; those with the highesy fought two or more engagements on the Somme - thus higher casualties. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think so. While there is clearly a relationship between the number of attacks made and the number of casualties there are to many variables to make this an absolute rule ie those attacking most suffer the most casualties. For example when divisions went over the top it pretty much depended on the artillery preparation as to what the casualties might be , hence "success" in the south and failure in the north on the first day. Also a Division might attack with only one Brigade rather than two or three. Or a division might attack and find the Germans switching units. Or Division A might press home its attack with less elan than Division B The length of time in the line varied enormously from Division to division. Even when not attacking there would be a constant stream of casualties from shelling. Perhaps length of time in the line rather than the number of rotations into it might be a better indication of casualties. Perhaps if I ever get the time I shall work out a complicated logaritham to see if this makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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