Atrocity Story from Hooge, 1915

[priv]

Andy & Simmy,

Thanks for your input. As I said I am about to start researching my 7th KRRC man - I have undertaken limited research to date, and I what I have uncovered on their actions in Sept 1916 has been very complementary to the brigade. Maybe the shortlived comments were just a result of them being New K1ds on the Block - sorry, awful pun I know.......

Just to reiterate - one of the best treads I have followed for a long while - keep it up.

[simmyred]

Priv: good luck with it and if I can help in any way give me a shout. I think Andy's more likely to be yer man on this, my focus is on the 30th although I have a good deal of follow-up research on tracking what happened to the day's survivors etc.

[Max]

Well! 2ndCMR attempts to hijack with some stunningly acute and perceptive observations. What a shame it's in a completely unacceptable format which renders me unable to respond. Gutted!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In what way is this hijacking the thread? I think that 2ndCMR makes some very pertinent and valid points in line with the subject of this thread which if I have to remind you is "Atrocity Story from Hooge, 1915", not the action in general.

Andy

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

"While the source is allegedly an original letter from the front I seriously doubt the story is true. I have been studying the German Army, especially the individual soldiers for many decades now and from what I can see the only difference between the German and British soldier is the language and place of birth. And thus these must be the only differences between British and Germans? A profound conclusion indeed."

I am not one to jump to copnclusions but I am at a loss to understand your meaning with your use of bold letters and statement. It does sound to be sarcastic and if this is incorrect then I must have read it improperly.

If it was meant to be sarcastic it it inappropriate.

Ralph

[stiletto_33853]

Well, I am a little stumped on the recent posting regarding this developing thread and I must admit to agreeing with Ralph wholeheartedly here.

It does sound sarcastic and if this a correct assumption it is totally inappropriate.

Thank you for putting a blight on some possible pertinent research into this, I only hope that the parties involved with this research and the contributors to this thread will continue with it off forum with a mutual goal in mind. That would be a shame for the forum in general.

Once again THANK YOU.

Andy

[2ndCMR]

I would describe it as ironic, whereas your remark below: "Thank you...." is I'm afraid, sarcastic.

There was no particular reason to use bold type. In future I will use the quote code.

Thank you for putting a blight on some possible pertinent research into this

Could you explain how I may have "blighted" this subject. I think if you read my posts you will find that I am as on-topic as most others, and drew attention to a facet of the letter that had not been otherwise commented on, as well as certain flaws in some of the arguments advanced by others. Presumably what a forum is for?

I believe this thread was intended to discuss the possible truth of a reported atrocity? I'm afraid some aspects of German culture & behaviour, civil and military are relevant to that discussion. I have followed up some quite off-topic remarks, because I felt they needed a response.

My initial post combined what I consider to be some 'howlers' and my responses to them, as one cannot respond to previously 'passed' posts individually.

I'm afraid I find the dismissive "under the rug" attitude to the questions raised by the iniital post to be, well, to put it very politely, regrettable. A chummy atmosphere is nice of course, but not at the expense of getting at the truth. I would have thought some efforts might be made to look into this incident further; for example in the correspondence of other members of this battalion etc.

I'm always interested in any comments on the substance of my remarks.

[egbert]

Ahh, this is the second similar thread within same day the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifle leaves his bloody spur of eternal hate against anything German (totally unbiased of course as were most other related postings in his young 35-posting-life); did you manage to read the English language link provided to you in the other thread?

P.S. As I mentioned in the other thread: I am still busy with atrocities against the mosquitos here, atrocities will not stop, no way!

[stiletto_33853]

Actually the Thank you x2 was said in irritation and not sarcasm and how have you blighted this thread, let me tell you.

One of the contributors to this developing thread sent me a personal message stating that because of what has transpired in the thread they felt unwilling to continue posting and would now take a back seat.

Well that's one forum member less who feels unable to post their opinions. Once again thank you, said in irritation you might note.

In another thread you have stated and I quote

" I am against cultures which promote and condone brutality, moral blindness and visciousness. It so happens that IMO that it is or was a predisposition of German culture and I will present information in due course to back that up."

Could that be a sweeping statement??? and it would be interesting to find out how our German contributors to this forum feel about that statement ,bearing in mind the forum rules of respecting forum members.

Well, I suppose it's time for me to respectfully ask you to post this information you have regarding the predispostion of the German culture and make a contribution to this forum.

Andy

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Sadly enough 2ndCMR, it appears you do feel there is a basic difference between various people in the world as your posts seem to indicate. I come from an English/German/Irish background, Catholic and Protestant. I discuss personal matters with friends across the world, from Germany to New Zealand, every aspect of the Great War and even to this day I find little difference between people in their daily lives, interests, concerns, etc.

The average German on the Somme was no different than the Ulster Division Lewis Gunner who shot down unarmed German prisoners as they tried to avoid the fighting and even when told of his error he continued to fire and his remark was to the effect 'after all, they were only Germans'.

No matter where you look, you will find good people and bad people. No one has a monopoly on this aspect of humanity nor is there any group who can be excluded from this view of mankind. Even the best person can be driven to act in a brutal manner as we can see in any war we study, any period of history and from every culture.

Living in the U.S. I have come across the propaganda that was spread in the early years of the war and the stories were simply beyond belief. I researched this subject in college where the authors had revealed the concerted effort of convincing the Americans of the brutality of the Germans and convince the country to join the Allied side of the war.

Pointing out 'flaws' and 'howlers' as you call them is not a good method of eliciting additional discussion. They are not flaws or howlers and to believe such has a touch of elitism and superiority of position. I have read a number of your threads and it seems that this is your method of posting and how you want to stir up things.

As such I can only assume the earlier posting was of a sarcastic nature and as such unacceptable to me. These postings are not very productive. This is my opinion and does not reflect any attitudes or opinions of the forum owner or members. I debated over posting this response but I feel it was necessary as the tone of the forum has changed quite a bit since I joined.

Ralph Whitehead

[armourersergeant]

Could you explain how I may have "blighted" this subject.  I think if you read my posts you will find that I am as on-topic as most others, and drew attention to a facet of the letter that had not been otherwise commented on, as well as certain flaws in some of the arguments advanced by others.  Presumably what a forum is for?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For me it was not the what you said but the tone you wrote in (if thats possible) that made me shy away from answering you. Ironically after some reading I tended to think you were making some good points but ruined your argument by, IMO, what seemed to be flaming the thread to cause an argument.

Your 'tone' seemed to imply that all who had so far contributed were stupid and ignorant, which in my case may be so but it is not the best way to get what you want to contribute to the thread accepted or taken note of in the intrest of 'truth', it just gets peoples backs up

My initial feeling was, here we go again, another thread descending into a personel slanging match. I'm not bothering anymore ( I was not the one who PM'd Andy) so that would have been two of us.

As it is I have little factual or documental help to offer on this but was looking foward to following the investigation of this and the ensuing coverage of the action itself.

So I say to all lets ignore the tone and accept some of the propositions by 2ndCMR and lets get on with advancing this thread in both the original story and the action itself.

regards

Arm

[Desmond7]

I will not hijack this thread - merely to point out that there is a strong possibility of the interested forum members carrying out some excellent research on this topic. It will require a combination of talents from many nations and backgrounds .... I wish you all well. Don't give up.

I do not have the level of expertise to comment on this PARTICULAR story but one thing I can say .... no race/nation on this Earth is lily-white.

I give you an example of perceptions which Ralph I am sure can empathise with ...

I have read letters home from men who were at the 1st day on the Somme in which they berate the Germans for 'sniping at wounded' as they crawled towards the Ancre stream after the 12th Royal Irish Rifles' attack.

At first reading in a 1916 paper, it does seem to be evidence of more nastiness by the wicked hun.

However, take the broader picture from the other side of the lines ... it was only when I started to research the subject thoroughly that I found the Germans were sniping because they in turn were being shot at by some extremely angry Ulstermen who had been forced to take shelter in No Mans Land but were still determined to shoot and try to kill their enemy!

There are several accounts of this in Middlebrook for instance. Thus one man's atrocity is another man's duty?

[Paul Reed]

Brutality on the battlefield is not limited to nationality; many years ago I interviewed a Canadian veteran who would only talk in vague details about his experiences at Courcelette in September 1916. When he died he left me a manuscript in which he admitted to shooting German soldiers during the capture of the village. He was only 16 at the time and the thought of it haunted him all his life. War does terrible things to people; whether German, British, Canadian or whatever. As historians we should treat all stories with some caution; that does not mean we should not explore them: whatever the outcome. Again, sadly, this forum proves it is poorly capable of conducting historical debate in a civil manner.

[paul guthrie]

I have commented several times on this and the prior forum that the real myth of the Great War - as opposed to the nonsense written by Mosier in his book by that name - is the myth that German atrocities against civilians were a myth and resulted from Allied propaganda. THis myth came about because some stories like the crucified Canadian were untrue.

One cannot read German Atrocities 1914 A History of Denial by 2 1st rate Trinity College scholars and Helen McPhail's The Long Silence about occupied France 14 18 and have any doubt whatsoever of this.

Having said that all nations I know of have their own history of horrible behavior in time of war which continues to this day. The resulting damage to national reputation and for that matter national interest should occur to any intelligent head of government/state but it does not.

I also join those who regret the tone of some things said in this thread. No nationality has a monopoly on good or evil.

[bob lembke]

Guys;

I have been off toiling in another, remarkably unproductive vineyard. Back to productive business.

I propose listing some of the sources that the participants have already mentioned on this thread about the action at Hooge, grouped under the pal who mentioned it. Perhaps those pals can more accurately describe the source, and add the other material (publisher, date of publication, etc.) that add up to a formal citation. I hope those pals and others can add additional sources.

I will endevor to do the housekeeping and edit and format this emerging document, until we actually come up with a very useful bibliography of this action. At some point we may drop the pals' names; presently they may serve to shame the pal into further contribution.

Draft Bibliography

Bert Heyvaert

War Diaries of the 14th Division

- divisional war diary

- Brigade war diaries

- battalion war diaries

- official history of the German 126th Infantry Regiment

AOK4/Jan

- Mentioned the German division here; have missed it

Stiletto/Andy

- Accounts of 7th & 8th Rifle Brigade officers

- 7th & 8th Rifle Brigade war diaries

- 7th and 8th KRRC war diaries

- Rifle Brigade history

- KRRC history

- "Rifle Brigade Cronicles"

- E. (?) Jones kay-Shuttleworth Memorial Book

simmyred

- 8th Rifle Brigade regimental history.

Let's pitch in and add specifics to these citations, and edit out duplications. I may create a word processing document containing this info, and as it fleshes out I will periodically post the emerging bibliography here, say every 2-3 days.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

Perhaps, if this project takes off, I could re-post it in a new thread, like "Hooge Bibliography".

Bob Lembke

[Max]

Hello Bob

To try to keep this thread on subject could you please open a new thread as you suggest.

Thanks

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Ok,

Good to see this might take off. To comply with Andy's wishes I have am about to start another thread in Western Front section under the title of Hooge July 1915, lets see what we can do with this.

Andy

[2ndCMR]

I see some are upset by my posts. The idea of spraying burning oil over human beings and burning them alive, or spraying them with poison gas causing them to drown in their own bodily fluids seems to arouse no such reaction.

Funny old world, isn’t it?

I suppose if the Allies had used these “technologies” first, and as a result German troops had in revenge shot some Allied troops who had, or tried to surrender, we would be treated to a chorus of justifications for such shootings.

One last quote from a German ‘officer’ who apparently wasn’t able to do as the three little monkeys:

“A thousand years shall pass and this guilt of Germany’s shall not be washed away”.Baldur von Schirach, Reich Leader of the Hitler Youth, before his execution for war crimes.

As for the polemics (for they seem to have no facts) from the outraged Germanophiles; I had a very pleasant dinner with some friends the other day. Before it was over our German-born host was telling us with great emphasis that the gas chambers were constructed after the war. Knowing as I do that “...there...[are]...basic difference between various people in the world”, I was not surprised. He remains a good friend by the way. ‘We Anglo-Saxons’ are quite prepared to agree to disagree.

Some of my remarks are primarily intended for those of ‘my own people’ who are inclined to cringe and apologize at the first remonstration, regardless of the facts, owing to their at times excessive civility. The mistake of confusing this habit with weakness, is one reason this forum exists.

I would have thought that the exponents of ‘totalenkrieg’, and ‘schrecklichkeit’, would have been quite game for the 'rough and tumble' of a good debate, but apparently not.

PS: it is better not to ty to guess at the "tone" in which a post is intended; a most inexact science.

Finis.

[Desmond7]

If anyone of whatever nationality came out with that Irving style b..**** I would ensure he left my humble abode PDQ. I wouldn't be calling him a friend either.

End of.

[liverpool annie]

2nd Canadian Mounted Rifle

I love love it when people share their knowledge - but much as I like Canadians - I have to say I don't need your kind of knowledge !

Why don't you take your thoughts somewhere else - where people might appreciate them ...... !

I find your attitude distasteful - and as far as I'm concerned I hope the "Finis" is FINAL!!

Annie

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

2ndCMR is entitled to his opinions as well as his style, how we react is an entirely different matter. This is a Great War Forum. People with an interest in the events of 1914-1918 no matter what theatre of war, no matter what side, are entitled to meet, share ideas, etc.

In the case of 2ndCMR I will simply ignore his posts as they do not add anything to any threads on the forum that I can see. I also note that many of his quotes and sources relate to WWII issues and post WWII trials, etc. I really do not know what his interest is in joining the Great War Forum but I would like to remind people that it is directed to the 1914-1918 period. If you wish to add comments and positions it would be nice if they were period related. There are a number of WWII forums out there if anyone is interested in joining them.

In the case of flamethrowers, poison gas or any other horrendous weapon if they were so repugnant to mankind then why were they adopted so readily and improved upon by all of the different nations.

Mahine guns and artillery killed far more men than gas or flamethrowers and in many horrendous ways. If we really wanted to ban terror weapons we would ban them all. It brings to mind the horror of people when the neutron bomb was being developed. How horrible, an atomic weapon that kills all life but leaves most structures standing. Much more horrendous than a conventional thermo nuclear weapon that kills all life and destroys all structures in the blast zone. Both are designed to kill at a maximum rate, the method makes no difference.

I welcome any debate on issues relating to the war but I am not going to use the forum as a place to argue with people.

Ralph

[Mark JP]

I know this is a classic thread and it appears that at least some of the replies are no longer attached but there is some specific information that has been missed.

According to the 7th's war diary which I read at the Winchester museum on Friday then Longbottom led the actual attack. It specifically says he led it, using those words.

And most crucially, there is mention in another version of this thread about the use of dummy figures. It is commented that the actual chance sof having these in the trenches, with all the other issues, is preosterous.

Well, the War Diary of the 8th KRRC in 1916 (I forget the actual date) says that the battalion drew fire by the use of dummies. Would it be fair to assume they were dressed in uniform and certainly fooled the enemy as they assisted in a feint.

Mark

[2ndCMR]

The use of dummies to draw the fire of snipers and thereby determine their location from the bullet holes was an idea of Maj. Hesketh-Prichard who created the British sniping schools etc. According to his account they were first used experimentally in January 1916. If others had used them earlier it is quite likely that his accounts would mention the fact as he had the typical modesty and manners of his generation and was careful to give credit to others, even to the detriment of the record of his own achievements. Such information would also likely have surfaced during his post-war research and discussions if not at the time.

The original letter named the officer whose body was mutilated. Hardly likely his comrades would confuse him with a dummy.

I know this is a classic thread and it appears that at least some of the replies are no longer attached but there is some specific information that has been missed.

According to the 7th's war diary which I read at the Winchester museum on Friday then Longbottom led the actual attack. It specifically says he led it, using those words.

And most crucially, there is mention in another version of this thread about the use of dummy figures. It is commented that the actual chance sof having these in the trenches, with all the other issues, is preosterous.

Well, the War Diary of the 8th KRRC in 1916 (I forget the actual date) says that the battalion drew fire by the use of dummies. Would it be fair to assume they were dressed in uniform and certainly fooled the enemy as they assisted in a feint.

Mark

[Mark Hone]

A posting on another forum which might refer to the same original incident reminded me of this thread. Were there any further developments subsequently? I must admit that I got diverted into researching other matters shortly after my initial burst of activity on it.

[PFF]

Stormtrooper of 1918 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:France1918.jpg

Alleged Stormtrooper picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stosstrupp_2.jpg

{Was this a still from post World War I movie 1928 Verdun? by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Poirier#Life}

Incidently one of the actors in "Verdun" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Brausewetter was KIA in Battle of Berlin 1945

{According to German Wikipetia he was a Officer Candidate In World War I}