Great Grandad - Lancashire Fusiliers - MM + DCM ?

[Max (UK)]

Hello

With many thanks to Susan, I am so excited that I am getting somewhere with researching my Great Grandad.

First of all, he was Denis McEvoy, born and bred in Blackburn, Lancashire. Tailor by trade and his father came over from Co.Kilkenny, Ireland. All I knew is that he fought in France and joined WW1 quite late.

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So, Susan found this medal card :-

Corporal in 1st Lancashire Fusiliers awarded a DCM - that was a suprise !

So I went looking for the citation and found it in the L.G. under D. McEvoy - really happy !!

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But also two more citations came up for Military Medal awards. What was suprising was that his DCM citation lists him as "MM" - so he must have already had a military medal ?

This is the first, which matches exactly (also 1st Lanc Fus) :-

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But then there is another one too - could it be him? The thing is, it lists him as a Private in the Grenadier Guards. But :-

( a ) The G.G. are listed as Blackburn, where he was from.

( b ) He is listed as "formerly Grenadier Guards" on N.A. listing for his MM award

( c ) The "matching" MM award states him as a Private. But then in the listing in the L.G. says Private (Corporal) - so does this indicate a promotion ?

This MM award is for Grenadier Guards, a Private, etc. Enlisted in Blackburn.....

The only thing is - the date of the L.G. listing is later than the other MM award.........so could it still be him? Or is it possible that the L.G. didn't publish it until much later?

Also.....is it possible to be awarded the Military Medal twice ?

Finally, I read somewhere that DCM winners got their photos published - this would be the most amazing thing.....I have no photo of him at all. Is there anywhere I could check this, please?

Any help would be really appreciated.......also I'm really sorry if I haven't written this very well !

Thank you

[Stephen Nulty]

Max

I think there might be some confusion here. You state at the beginning that your ggfather was Denis McEvoy.

The MIC for D McEvoy 2711 shows his name to be Daniel and to have been a Private, Serjeant and Acting WO2 in the Lancashire Fusliliers.

D McEvoy 26621 is shown as Dennis McEvoy, Grenadier Guards.

See these links

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=3

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=2

[Max (UK)]

Hello Stephen

Thank you for that - so I can rule out the first one then !! I didn't see that he was Daniel.

Oh well - it cuts out my confusion, anyway !!

Denis is quite often written by people as Dennis.....also it says Blackburn, which is where he was from.......does this make a bit more sense, please?

I honestly don't know where else to go.....it is really assumptions.....

[Stebie9173]

I agree with Stephen (as usual). Two separate men - Denis and Daniel McEvoy.

Your man (Dennis):

MM, LG 16.7.1918

26621 Pte. D. McEvoy, G. Gds. (Blackburn).

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

The other D. McEvoy (Daniel):

LG 19.3.18

2711 Pte. (Cpl.) D. McEvoy, Lan. Fus. (Failsworth).

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

DCM : LG 2.9.18

2711 Cpl. D. McEvoy, M.M., Lan. Fus. (Manchester).

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. This N.C.O. was in charge of a section during a minor operation. Soon after starting his party came under heavy machine-gun fire from a hedge behind the objective. He got up a Lewis gun to bring a cross fire to bear, and under cover of its fire crept up to within thirty yards and bombed the enemy, gun, he then returned, and led his men on their objective. His prompt action in silencing the gun ensured the success of the operation.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

So your ancestor is the Grenadier Guard, not the Lancashire Fusilier as you first thought, so no DCM, but a brave man nonetheless.

Incidentally, this is the same Gazette as my great-uncle's MM (below). Although I haven't narrowed his MM to an exact date it was more than likely won between 21st March 1918 and the middle of April 1918.

I believe that the Guards Regiments Service Records were elsewhere when the bombs were raining on the main boxes of WW1 Service Records. I can't remember where they are held, but another post stating Grenadier Guards in the Title should lead someone to tell us if I'm remembering correctly...

Steve.

[Stephen Nulty]

I was just about to say that Mr Beeby would be better able to give more detail on this, but as usual he beat me to it

[Max (UK)]

Thanks Steve (that's twice you've helped me now!) and Stephen !!!

I don't suppose therefore there will be a chance to get a photo then?

It is nice to know he got a MM though, that's pretty cool.

Thanks

Max.

[Stebie9173]

Mr Bad Habit (Me!) has edited his post, above, regarding the Guards Regiments Service Records. Please re-read!

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

As far as photos go, if you search the local Blackburn weekly papers around about May/June 1918, there will probably be a short paragraph or two on his MM, maybe even the reason he won it, and probably a picture.

Steve.

[Stephen Nulty]

Good point on the Service Records, Steve. I've also read that elsewhere on the forum. Is "Coldstreamer" the man?

[PhilB]

I don't suppose therefore there will be a chance to get a photo then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There`s a chance. Get yourself to Blackburn Public Library and scan through the local paper from the LG date for his MM. If he`s there he should be in somewhere in the next few weeks. There`s a good chance of a report and a small chance of a photo. Good luck. Phil B

PS Whereabouts in Blackburn was he from?

[Stebie9173]

The other point to bear in mind is that the MIC states 5th Battalion ex 4th Battalion.

The 5th is a Reserve battalion. My interpretation of the entry is that he won his MM during the German Spring Offensive somewhere between 21st March 1918 and April 1918, and either during his gallant action or soon thereafter, was wounded and invalided back to the UK where he was transferred to the 5th Battalion.

So I think you could be looking for a wounding date as well (these tend to be in the papers a week or four after the event, though it was a very busy time for casualties around then)

Steve.

[Max (UK)]

Thanks so much for all this Steve and Stephen - you are both wonderful. A trip to Blackburn this weekend then !! Thanks for the information, I can't tell you how grateful I am.

Phil, I did pay for a 1901 census but I only have that info at home, not work, so I can find out tonight. I think it was the parish of St Mary's.....I got the streetname too.....

I know he is buried in Blackburn but have never been there, perhaps I will go up and stay in a B&B and have a good look around the town, look at their old home and try and find his grave.......although I have looked on the BMD sites and never found him.....!

[Max (UK)]

The other point to bear in mind is that the MIC states 5th Battalion ex 4th Battalion.

The 5th is a Reserve battalion. My interpretation of the entry is that he won his MM during the German Spring Offensive somewhere between 21st March 1918 and April 1918, and either during his gallant action or soon thereafter, was wounded and invalided back to the UK where he was transferred to the 5th Battalion.

So I think you could be looking for a wounding date as well (these tend to be in the papers a week or four after the event, though it was a very busy time for casualties around then)

Steve

Blimey - this is amazing. I'm new to all this stuff, so would that have meant he would have gotten a silver wound badge ?

[Stebie9173]

Only if he was deemed unfit for further duty.

The fact that he was in a Reserve Battalion may or may not exclude that possibility.

One of my other great-uncles (I think I can just about cover most eventualities in the War with my Great-Uncles ) was wounded on 21st March 1918 with the 11th Suffolks, evacuated to Blighty (again), treated, partially recovered, medically downgraded, transferred to the 3rd (Reserve) battalion of the Suffolks, and saw out the War to 1919 from there. No SWB. Then again, an SWB is entirely possible...

Looking at the page for 31st Division and the fact that every Brigade is listed with heavy casualties, it seems they were pretty much annihiliated at some point in March or April 1918, though I don't know anything specific at the moment.

Steve.

[Stephen Nulty]

Max

You were right about St Mary's. The address was 12, Water Street.

[Stephen Nulty]

Looks like yer man was married in the December quarter of 1903 to either Minnie Littler or Margaret Ann Whalley

[Max (UK)]

Max

You were right about St Mary's. The address was 12, Water Street.

Nice one, thanks Stephen thank you. When I go up there, I will certainly visit it.

I have to say a couple of things. I am getting more and more into World War I with every passing day. I've always been more "into" WWII, but WWI is fast becoming a MAJOR obsession.

The addition of all this research is making is so addictive. I never thought of Great Uncles like Steve mentioned.....wow - I wonder if Daniel McEvoy was a great Uncle, or for that matter if there were others. This is AMAZING stuff and for the first time in my life, I'm digging into roots that I never knew about before. So both WWI and genealogy in general - amazing.

I think you guys are amazing with your knowledge too. I am so impressed and grateful - you're also so generous with your time.

[Max (UK)]

Looks like yer man was married in the December quarter of 1903 to either Minnie Littler or Margaret Ann Whalley

Wow - when I looked before I was unable to find anything like that on the Net !!! Thanks Stephen !! I had better get writing this stuff down !

[Ferret_uk]

Hello Max,

Not sure where Water street is in Blackburn unless im missing something, only lived in the area for 30 years , anyway there is a Water St in Great Harwood which is on the outskirts of Blackburn if you will.. quite close to me really.

Just a thought, but ties in with enlisting in Blackburn as it is close....do you know where he grew up in Blackburn i.e. area?

Cheers

Mick.

[PhilB]

Water St no longer exists. It`s at 1 o`clock from the centre of this map of about 1905. It ran alongside the then open River Blakewater, now all covered over and part of the shopping centre. There is/was also a Walter St in Blackburn. Phil B

[Coldstreamer]

hello

you dont neccessarily need to go to blackburn - the library records and staff are great and have found stuff for me for either £1 or free - all via the post and email

the guards however may well charge you £20 for service papers

Ian

Thanks so much for all this Steve and Stephen - you are both wonderful. A trip to Blackburn this weekend then !! Thanks for the information, I can't tell you how grateful I am.

[Max (UK)]

Hi Ian

Thank you for posting, I do appreciate it. I have to go though, for two reasons :-

1. I've been digging into my family history this week (in fact, obsessing about it - I don't think there has been a night I've gone to bed before 4am, hehe) - and I realise I have never been to Blackburn. So I really want to go.

2. I am really excited about doing the library research - I booked a viewing ticket at Blackburn Central Library and cannot wait.....I have never operated a microfiche (sp?) before and I think it will be a great experience (assuming I find what I'm looking for!!). I'm also hoping to locate the grave locations and houses (those still standing) and visit them....alot to do, but I am so looking forward to it.

Thanks though - I will certainly bare the postal option in mind, if more research needed in future and if I can't get up there !

[bernardmcilwaine]

the records for the guards are kept by their individual regts,they are not all in one place,if you write to birdcage walk,they will reply that you have to contact the particular guards regt that you are enquiring about,then they give you the address,which is the same one that you have just written too best way to contact them is to write to birdcage walk and put the guards regt you want,in brackets on the envelope,hopefully they will pass it to the particular regt,bernard

[Max (UK)]

Hi Bernard. Thank you for that, I will do it next week. Thanks