RND at Gallipoli

[Clive]

I am interested in the RND at Gallipoli and would be grateful if any Pals could recommend books or other sources of information . I am particularly interested in the 9th and 12th Battalions . Regards Clive

[Jonathan Saunders]

When you say 9th and 12th Bttns I presume you are referring to RM Bttns (9th I know was Chatham, 12th was Portsmouth??)

There is a history of the RM in the Great War by Blumberg - out of print since 1928 and will cost around £300 second hand but might be available at a reference library. Much cheaper is the diary of Horace Bruckshaw edited by Martin Middlebrook although this covers the Plymouth Bttn.

On RND generally is Douglas Jerrold - History of the RND, and Joe Murray's Gallipoli As I Saw It (just Gallipoli in s/b). Another book worth reading is Len Sellers - The Hood Bttn.

[Steven Broomfield]

Jonathan, I stand to be corrected, but I suspect the naval battalions were numbered at one point, 1 to 12, and the names were allocated later. I might be wrong, of course (it wouldn't be the first time, and it sure as eggs is eggs won't be the last ).

Can't add to your suggested reading, though.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Jonathan, I stand to be corrected, but I suspect the naval battalions were numbered at one point, 1 to 12, and the names were allocated later.  I might be wrong, of course (it wouldn't be the first time, and it sure as eggs is eggs won't be the last ).

Can't add to your suggested reading, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stephen the Naval Battalions were numbered although I dont think they were ever referred to by the number (they had also been named Hood, Collingwood etc). It was the same for the Royal Marine Battalions. The Naval Battalions were 1 - 8 and the Royal Marine Battalions 9 - 12. Chatham was defintely 9. In total there were 8 Naval Battalions and 4 Royal Marine Battalions in the original formation.

[Graham Stewart]

For the record the Royal Naval Divisions' numbered battalions at Antwerp in October 1914 were;-

1st Royal Naval Brigade;-

1st(Drake)Bn.

2nd(Hawke)Bn.

3rd(Benbow)Bn.

4th(Collingwood)Bn.

2nd Royal Naval Brigade;-

5th(Nelson)Bn.

6th(Howe)Bn.

7th(Hood)Bn.

8th(Anson)Bn.

The Royal Marine Brigade;-

9th(Chatham)Bn.

10th(Portsmouth)Bn.

11th(Plymouth)Bn.

12th(Deal)Bn.

Graham.

[Clive]

Sorry for any confusion , I'm new to this! I'm trying to find out more about my Great Uncle . I have a photograph of him which shows him in the uniform of the 9th Chaham Bn. RMLI .his medals however,are engraved Deal Bn .

I believe the two amalgamated in August 1915 ,presumably due to losses .I have just read Gallipoli by L Carlyon which I found very informative but contained very little information about the RMD .

If anyone can help I would be very grateful . Sorry again . Clive .

[Jonathan Saunders]

The Chatham and Deal Bttns merged in July 1915 to form 1st RM Bttn however ORs would have continued with the same entry number and with the prefix CH or DEAL.

What was his service number? What information can you provide about his service? Do you know for a fact that he was at Gallipoli? I would like to think I have a reasonable knowledge of the CHATHAM and DEAL Bttns for the two weeks they spent at ANZAC reinforcing the Australians (roughly 28 Apr - 13 May)

[Clive]

All I have at the moment is the inscription on his Medals which reads Deal 1238 SPR SG LANDY . and a copy of his R-111 Discharge which states enlisted 8th of February 1915 at Manchester . Served with the Royal Naval Division in the Dardenelles .

It is interesting that you say they spent two weeks at ANZAC .My Grandmother used to say that he was found with a lot of Dead Australians unconcious and badly wounded .Clive

[Jonathan Saunders]

If he enlisted in Feb 1915 he may not have been on Gallipoli until after the RND had been withdrawn from ANZAC. Over the course of the next coupel of days I will dig around my various notes to see if I can find anything that would help.

[Clive]

Thank you so much , it is hard to un-earth the facts from the myths after so many years . Especially as in many cases the people who told you the stories are now dead and gone . I wish I had listened more carefully . Clive

[Jonathan Saunders]

Clive,

Something that has just dawned on me is that you might have deducted he was Deal Bttn from the Deal prefix. Most men in Deal Bttn had anything but a Deal prefix. I just looked at a listing of RM deaths on Gallipoli and this confirms most deaths to the Deal Bttn were men with Chatham, Portsmouth or Plymouth numbers.

Also the numbers around Deal/1238 refer to RM Divisional Engineers, would it fit that your relative was in this unit rather than RMLI?

The first casualties around this number were from June 1915. The Division sailed from England on 6 Feb, so I am quite sure your relative was a reinforcement as opposed to being with the original RM battalions. The first reinforcements arrived around 30 May 1915, with more around 7 June and 15 July.

Does any of this help?

[Clive]

Jonathon ,

Thank you it does , his Medals state SPR(sapper?) 1238 .His picture shows him with the 9th Battallion on his shoulder .He was very badly wounded and discharged 25th August 1916 according to his papers .

He was a very interesting man who went on to work as a Railway Engineer in West Africa building bridges .He survived into his 90's and still had shrapnel in his body .

I would be grateful if you could tell me what they were doing ,where they were fighting . The books that I have read so far only make brief references to the division . Clive

[Jonathan Saunders]

Jonathon ,

Thank you it does , his Medals state SPR(sapper?) 1238 .His picture shows him with the 9th Battallion on his shoulder .He was very badly wounded and discharged 25th August 1916 according to his papers .

He was a very interesting man who went on to work as a Railway Engineer in West Africa building bridges .He survived into his 90's and still had shrapnel in his body .

I would be grateful if you could tell me what they were doing ,where they were fighting . The books that I have read so far only make brief references to the division . Clive

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clive,

On Gallipoli then apart from those two weeks at ANZAC when your Uncle would not have been present, the RM Bttns spent most of the time at Helles next to the French sector from Skew Bridge and follow the Krithia Nullah up to the Front Line. They were involved in heavy fighting in June and July and then actions quietened down in their sector. At the evacuation the French who were among the first to leave in early December, the RND troops took over the French sector, wearing Horizon Bleu and French helmets to fool the Turks. Members of the RND were the last to leave 8 Jan 1916. This is very brief synopsis.

When I get to work tomorrow I have someinfo that covers the RM Bttns in France.

Jon

[Clive]

Thank you so much. Clive

[Jonathan Saunders]

For RM service on the WF try this link

http://www.cwgc.co.uk/RNDdiary002.htm

Regards,

Jon

[Clive]

Thank you Jon do you have any maps or other information about Gallipoli . I have just ordered the History of the RND BY Douglas Jerrold can not wait .Thanks again Clive .

[Jonathan Saunders]

I have copies of Gallipoli maps but they are all published elsewhere - have you tried searching on the internet? I think there are Gallipoli maps in Jerrold's history.

[michaeldr]

Clive,

For some reading on the RND Engineers at Gallipoli there is an article/diary by Eric Wettern written in 1923 which was reproduced by Len Sellers in his magazine ‘RND’ issue No.21, June 2002 – pages 2044 to 2070. Len states that the original is held at the Liddle Collection, Brotherton Library, University of Leeds.

Wettern sailed for the Dardanelles with No.2 Field Company, RND Engineers on 1st March 1915 [as JS has pointed out, this is perhaps a little early for your chap who was more probably in one of the reinforcements]

He describes their two days at Anzac [29th – 30th April] and how they spent the rest of their time on the Helles front. He was amongst the very last to leave, at about 0300 hrs on the morning of the 9th Jan 1916

Best of luck with your researches

Michael D.R.

[Clive]

Thank you Jon and Michaeldr ,

please forgive my ignorance ,but what were the engineers tasked with? What were they trained to do ?Did they fight along side the infantry or were they specialised? .How did their training differ from the RMLI? .Regards Clive

[Jonathan Saunders]

what were the engineers tasked with? What were they trained to do ?Did they fight along side the infantry or were they specialised? .How did their training differ from the RMLI?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They would have carried out the same duties as Royal Engineers did for the army. That would have involved tunneling, detonating mines, communication wiring, bridge building, fortification, pioneer duties such as road-building etc.

The first RM Engineers were transferred from the RE - possibly a small number of Regulars mixed with Reservists. The RND had managed to "conscript" a large number of miners from the volunteers for the army - I think many of them soon found their way into the RND Engineers.

They certainly died like the infantry from snipers, shrapnel shells etc and in the back to the wall situations that arose I expect they would have picked up a rifle like the infantry.

This is mainly off the top of my head, so if anyone can report with any degree of authority or knowledge, then please do.

[horatio2]

For the record the Royal Naval Divisions' numbered battalions at Antwerp in October 1914 were;-

1st Royal Naval Brigade;-

1st(Drake)Bn.

2nd(Hawke)Bn.

3rd(Benbow)Bn.

4th(Collingwood)Bn.

2nd Royal Naval Brigade;-

5th(Nelson)Bn.

6th(Howe)Bn.

7th(Hood)Bn.

8th(Anson)Bn.

The Royal Marine Brigade;-

9th(Chatham)Bn.

10th(Portsmouth)Bn.

11th(Plymouth)Bn.

12th(Deal)Bn.

Graham.

Graham, Just stumbled (late) across this thread. I note you have repeated the error in Jerrold's RND History: the 2nd Battalion was Benbow (not Hawke) and the 3rd Battalion was Hawke (not Benbow), as is clear from any Navy List for late 1914.

[MartinWills]

Jerrold also wrote a history of the HAwke Battalion.

Len Sellers series of RND magazines has now ceased but Len sells some copies from time to time on ebay. They can also be consulted at places like the IWM and the Admiralty library (or the AWM, I believe). Delving through them will also point you towards some other sources, published or unpublished.