Jano Posted 1 November , 2005 Share Posted 1 November , 2005 I am writing a fiction, and it involves WW1 tunnellers in a small part. It's easy to find out how the miners and clay-kickers ended up in the tunnelling units, but can anyone tell me (or guess?) how the back-up individuals - the timbermen, baggers and runners-out - were chosen to be in one of these units? Some of the miners were identified and taken out of other units, some out of employment in the mines and similar, but where did the semi-specialists come from? Specifically the carpenters who became the underground timbermen? Were they likely to have been "co-opted" like the already-serving miners, or would they have been identified and picked from incoming new recruits to make up the numbers in a tunnelling company? Any knowledge that could be conveyed would be gratefully received! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 1 November , 2005 Share Posted 1 November , 2005 Jano I assume you have seen the excellent Beneath Flanders Fields by Peter Barton et al. Colliery owners were circularised in 1915 and 1916 for recruits who were assessed at Chatham as to whether they were face men or timbermen etc. A civilian mine would have much the same range of employments as a Tunnelling Company therefore these ‘semi-specialists’ would also have come at the same time. The original clay kickers were found by Sir John Norton Griffiths in Britain, there were comparatively few but the technique was taught to other members of the companies. Carpenters would also be on the strength of the Company but the mining frames were put in by timbermen, who also seem to be referred to as fitters. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 1 November , 2005 Share Posted 1 November , 2005 Also, many working partys from regiments and battalions on rest in billets were employed to cart away the spoil from mines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jano Posted 2 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2005 Thanks to both of you! Simon, yes - Beneath Flanders Fields is by my elbow - it's brilliant, isn't it? I should have been more diligent in searching through it and realised that the other members of tunnelling companies would have been recruited from the same placs as the miners. However - can I beg the use of your head for a minute and ask if you can see how a carpenter from Croydon could enlist and end up working underground? What would the route be? Perhaps? Possible? I'm groping here! Thanks, Jano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 2 November , 2005 Share Posted 2 November , 2005 Jano As a carpenter I think he would have spent most of his time on the surface, preparing mining frames and the like. I don't know how many carpenters a tunnelling company had on its establishment, although obviously a small number compared to a field company. On enlistment his trade might have led to his recruitment into the Royal Engineers and then it might have been pure chance that he was sent to a tunnelling company. That's all quite feasible to me. Assuming that he is a skilled carpenter I don't think you should have him wielding a pick, though. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jano Posted 2 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2005 Simon, thanks! For someone like me who lacks any real knowledge of feasibilites, this is most helpful. All the very best Jano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny_doyle Posted 2 December , 2005 Share Posted 2 December , 2005 Simon, thanks! For someone like me who lacks any real knowledge of feasibilites, this is most helpful. All the very best Jano for what it's worth, my Gt Grandfather, Sapper Joseph Niland of D Section, 179 Tunnelling Company, was a Cooper employed at Guinness in Dublin. Well used to working in wood but no idea how he ended up in the tunnelling co. KIA 28th March 1917. John My Niland Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 2 December , 2005 Share Posted 2 December , 2005 And you need to take in to account the trades that the Army taught some men that were nothing like their "civvie" jobs. A couple of examples; two apprentice engineers, one became a RAMC orderly the other a carpenter with the RE. These were not the regiments they chose. Another was a tailor by trade and became a rifleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 2 December , 2005 Share Posted 2 December , 2005 John, Off-topic I know, but have you been to the Guinness "museum" in Dublin? It's really a temple to the Myth Of Guinness rather than a museum, but it has a fantatstic video of the coopers making barrells, which was worth the price of admission by itself. It's also the only place I've ever heard a barman tell someone not to have a Guinness Extra-Cold because "It's too cold and just makes your teeth hurt"! Shall we let them have their thread back now? Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jano Posted 3 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2005 (edited) John, thank you for your input. My fictional hero who I am trying to place underground is called Joseph, by the way! Squirrel, understand that this cross-aptitude stuff has to take place and than many must have found themselves totally at odds with their peacetime occupations! I'm just trying to feasibly wedge my carpenter into a tunnel!! OK Adrian, I'm as good at losing the thread as anyone - I was in Ireland this year but sadly only got as far as the Jameson's museum in Cork... Thanks everyone for your help. You're great. Jano Edited 3 December , 2005 by Jano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny_doyle Posted 3 December , 2005 Share Posted 3 December , 2005 Adrian, yes, I've been to the Guinness Museum a couple of times and have seen the Coopers Video. Met the archivist who gave me quite a bit of material re Joe Niland including his "transfer" document citing reason for leaving the Cooperage Dept - "Enlisted in Kitchener's Army" - and Guinness company followup for the family pension. I have a copy of the Guinness Roll of Honour detailing all who served, medal awards etc... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 3 December , 2005 Share Posted 3 December , 2005 Jano, I have just come across this extract from The Snapper (East Yorkshire Regiment Magazine) Mar 1915, Maybe of some help. regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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