Englishman in Australian Army

[bobfoster]

I am researching my grandfather, Pte 1750 James Foster who joined the 5th Bn. AIF in December 1914. He served at Galipolli and France where he was killed in action at Pozieres on 25th July 1916. I have, through the Australian archives received a full copy of his service history from his enlistment in Melbourne to his death at Pozieres.

He was 38 years of age when he was killed and although I have been able to find out quite a lot about him there is one thing that intrigues me.

Immediately prior to his enlistment he was an iron ore miner living with his wife and 4 children in the North East of England. (My father would be aged 4 years then) Why did he travel all the way to Australia?. Does anyone know whether many Englishmen enlisted in similar circumstances at this time, were there any incentives - monetary or otherwise. Would his passage to Australia be cash assisted. Why did he not join the British Army?.

I realise that this is pure speculation and will never know for sure why he left his family but any ideas would be appreciated.

[Bob Coulson]

Can't really help but to say I live close to Middlesbrough in N/E England, the ironstone mines being numerous in this area and I have come across men who went to Australia to work in the same industry.

Bob.

[Yves Le Cuziat, MBE]

Good Day Mate

Many British men fought with an Australian uniform ..they fought for King and Country... To enlist in AIF was maybe for him a way to go back to England to see his family. Interesting also to remember that he was a six bob a day tourist..such sum of money likely helped his wife to feed the children

Regards

Yves

[bobfoster]

Many thanks Bob and Yves for your replies. It is something that we had never considered that he might have been working in Australia prior to the outbreak of war. James was a miner from Lingdale, Yorkshire - it is another angle to look at . Thankyou. Bob.

[Auimfo]

Bob,

I don't know how far you've checked the Australian records but if you go to the Australian War Memorial website and check their biographical records. You'll find a very interesting file under the Red Cross Records of Missing and Wounded. Although there were several reports from 5th Battalion men regarding his death there is one that stated he was seen alive in England 12 months later. It also includes letters written by Foster's wife Mary (your Grandmother?)

If you also check the Roll of Honour there is some good information to be found there as well.

The link: http://www.awm.gov.au/database/biographical.asp

From these records it appears his wife and son remained in Yorkshire whilst he travelled to Mt Lyell in Tasmania which was a big mining area. My guess would be that he was drawn out here to work in the mines. Possibly working conditions and also the pay may have been better. Perhaps he initially planned to work for a while, save some money and then bring his family to Australia. He then came across to Melbourne and joined up there. I'm not sure why he travelled to Melbourne but perhaps he was originally knocked back in Tasmania and then went elsewhere to join up.

Hope this helps,

Tim L.

[Steven Broomfield]

Tim, thanks for that - it set me looking for my grand-mother's brother. History has it that he served with the AIF; I never met him, though he apparently stayed with my parents (much to my mother's annoyance) for the Coronation.

Anyway, I found the man i think is him - 1303, Pte Harvey Alder, 14th Battalion. he enlisted on 3.10.14, leaving Melbourne on the 2nd Feb 15. I assume, therefore, that he was at Anzac.

His records indicates 'RTA, 5.11.17'. I am assuming that this means he returned to Australia on that date (RTA = Returned to Australia?). How can i find out why he was returned - presume wounded, but no mention that i can see in the wounded rolls on-line.

Would anyone have any ideas of personnel from the 14th Bn; I see from bean that it was enlisted in Victoria. Great Uncle Harvey was a labourer, and his next of kin/address are given as his father, England, so not much help there!

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but any help/pointers appreciated.

Cheers

Steve

[robbie]

I thought RTA on the AIF documents referred to Returned to Action. I might be wrong, though. I have my grandfather's full service records from the 5th FAB 14th battery.

Robbie

[Auimfo]

Steve,

If you go to www.naa.gov.au (National Archives of Australia) and then into Record Search, type in the name Harry Alder (it's not Harvey) and B2455 in the series no. This will find the listing for his service records. Unfortunately Harry's service record hasn't been digitised yet but if you apply it will appear in due course (ussually a couple of months - and it's a free service).

The brief summary of the record shows Harry was born in Highclere England, enlisted in Shepparton Victoria and who's father was named Timothy Alder.

Hope this helps,

Tim L.

P.S. 'RTA' actually stands for 'Repatriated to Australia'. When you obtain copies of his service documents they will more than likely explain why. Generally it was due to wounds, illness or when they left to come home after the war.

[Auimfo]

Steve,

Actually, I just checked the Nominal Roll and yes it appears his name was Harvey. Obviously someone has mistyped the name. It was either the person who typed out the Nominal Roll all those years ago or someone from the National Archives when transcribing the details. Either way you will have to search the archives using 'Harry' and when his records appear online they will solve the puzzle.

Tim L.

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks, Tim.. Much apprecaited. He was definitely Harvey; one of my uncles was named Harvey (though always called Tim, just to confuse matters!). I will follow the course you recommend. Steve

[bobfoster]

Tim,

Many thanks for your information. The records from the Red Cross Missing archives were very interesting and informative. I think from reading the accounts from his fellow soldiers, it was my grandfather they identified on the battlefield after the first atttack at Pozieres. It would seem that he was in no mans land for a number of days and that his body was never found / identified. He is commemorated on the Memorial to the Missing at Villiers Bretoneux.

I will research miners travelling from England to Australia before the war, this is a new slant that I had not thought about. Also, from the archive there are possible links of my grandmother working for a local landowner, up to now we did not know her full name - I will follow these lines of enquiry up.

Bob.

[Graham Stewart]

Bob,

My great grandfathers step-brother Bertram Francis was one of many Durham coalminers who enlisted into the Australian Army. He was originally from Littleburn, Langley Moor just outside of Durham City when he migrated to Australia to work in the coalmines of New South Wales in 1912.

He enlisted as 771 Pte Bertram Francis, 'C' Coy, 35th Bn, A.I.F., aged 23yrs 2months. His address at the time of enlistment was Kline Street, Weston, and since he was single at the time, I believe he was in lodgings.

He managed to get back to England after being wounded on 7/6/1917 with a gunshot wound to the knee. Whilst recovering from his wounds he went AWOL and it's my belief he actually came back to Durham to see his parents for one last time.

He returned from AWOL and went back to France in the November and was eventually killed in action at Peronne on 1st September 1918.

Graham.

P.S.

If any of our Australian members live in or near Weston, I would love a photo of the memorial, as I believe he's commemorated on it.

[Blackblue]

Tim, thanks for that - it set me looking for my grand-mother's brother.  History has it that he served with the AIF; I never met him, though he apparently stayed with my parents (much to my mother's annoyance) for the Coronation.

Anyway, I found the man i think is him - 1303, Pte Harvey Alder, 14th Battalion.  he enlisted on 3.10.14, leaving Melbourne on the 2nd Feb 15.  I assume, therefore, that he was at Anzac.

His records indicates 'RTA, 5.11.17'.  I am assuming that this means he returned to Australia on that date (RTA = Returned to Australia?).  How can i find out why he was returned - presume wounded, but no mention that i can see in the wounded rolls on-line.

Would anyone have any ideas of personnel from the 14th Bn; I see from bean that it was enlisted in Victoria.  Great Uncle Harvey was a labourer, and his next of kin/address are given as his father, England, so not much help there!

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but any help/pointers appreciated.

Cheers

Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Steven,

Just a little further you may find interesting. The 14th Bn was enlisted in Melbourne and went to Gallipoli as part of the 4th Infantry Brigade (Monash's). It was initially an independent Brigade but joined the New Zealand and Australian Division for Gallipoli. After returning to Egypt it joined the 4th Division. The 14th was Captain Albert Jacka's (first Australian WW1 VC) battalion, sometimes known as 'Jacka's mob'. A very distinguished unit. I have the 14th Bn history. Your relative is not mentioned in person.

http://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_11201.asp

Rgds

Tim

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks. I think I have my winter project now!

You know, my gran (his sister) died in the late '70's, and my main memory of her home - a small cottage near Newbury - was by the front door. As you walked in, the first thing you saw was a sampler (a small piece of hand embroidery), with the legend: "God gave you your relations; thank God you can choose your friends".

After all these years, I'm going to try and locate her closest relation.